After maxing out my main character, a fire wizard, I decided to start a second wizard, my death. However, I was unaware that some of death's spells had been extremely unfairly nerfed. Especially call of khrulhu. We went from 1100 damage drain to all (which I guess could have used a MINOR nerf), to 890 which is less than it should be, and now we're at 675. 675?!?!!?? Might as well just use scarecrow! Doesn't cost a shadow, and you unlock scarecrow at level 48! Unbelievable! Khrulhu should be buffed to AT LEAST 900. Its just not fair. Death never had a great aoe besides scarecrow up until khrulhu was released many years ago. Now the spell is simply useless. why wait for a shadow pip when you can just scarecrow, its only an 80 base damage difference. Seiriously, this needs to be changed. The khrulhu nerf was not at all needed, and I hope KI can see it that way.
After maxing out my main character, a fire wizard, I decided to start a second wizard, my death. However, I was unaware that some of death's spells had been extremely unfairly nerfed. Especially call of khrulhu. We went from 1100 damage drain to all (which I guess could have used a MINOR nerf), to 890 which is less than it should be, and now we're at 675. 675?!?!!?? Might as well just use scarecrow! Doesn't cost a shadow, and you unlock scarecrow at level 48! Unbelievable! Khrulhu should be buffed to AT LEAST 900. Its just not fair. Death never had a great aoe besides scarecrow up until khrulhu was released many years ago. Now the spell is simply useless. why wait for a shadow pip when you can just scarecrow, its only an 80 base damage difference. Seiriously, this needs to be changed. The khrulhu nerf was not at all needed, and I hope KI can see it that way.
I agree, 900 is a good amount they should keep it at or 890 somewhere there, i hate nerfs.
The nerf was neccessary. Remember that it is a drain spell like scarecrow. Drains are a utility only offered to death, in which the lack of damage is compensation for the fact you are healed back half of your damage dealt. Also note death spells are supposed to do little damage like the schools of Ice, Life, and Balance it is the reason your given so many traps like feint, curse, and dark pack. Remember, you are given utility spells for a reason. The nerfs are for stability for the game in the future, and as well allowing old utility spells to resurface into light.
Also if you think this was just a nerf against the death school that is wrong as well. Glowbug Squall had a damage reduction from 1120 to 940 and they lost the enfeeble that came with it. Myth also had the damage from Collossus cut and now only removes one shield, Ice had weaver damage reduction and the shield was reduced from -75 to -50. Ratbeard releases dev diaries on the reasons for the nerfs. We were on track for a storm spell to do well over 2000 base damage before any enchants and multipliers. These spells would be used against us. That is not difficulty, that is unnecessary.
We are next in line now for a damage %, Peirce %, and a Resistance % rework very soon as most of these will be converted into ratings. This rework will help target the Ice school who is dominating pvp right now, while also helping pve be a little more fun to actually play through.
With the success of the crit rework, albiet there are still bugs with the visuals, has made the game really fun for causal players, and has opened up the use of other stats, while taking away criticals priority over other stats now. It opens up diversity.
In short, it's going to be messy, but worth it as it sets the game up for years of future growth even past arc 4.
Frost Giant needs to be 800 because fire dragon does over 900 total with over time, ok maybe 700 but 460 is just bad
So are you saying Ice should deal more damage than Storm and still stun? Fire has no utility for fire dragon and also dots are suppose to be the strongest type of spell in the game so you can't compare something like Frost Giant's damage + stun to Fire Dragon.
The spell was nerfed particularly because of the full enchantment now being able to be applied to drain spells.
675 is a bit too low, just like how I believe 460 is still too low for Frost Giant.
But bear in mind the reason behind last year's spell audit, though it seemed some spells were targeted harder than some.
Hi Star Edward,
You may feel that these numbers are too low, but they are actually balanced based on what KI has provided in terms of damage per pip.
For Khrululu: Death shadow-enhanced spells deal 105 damage per pip. Khrululu is 5 pips and one shadow pip. A shadow pip = 3.6 regular pips. Hence, 105 * 8.6 = 903. However, because AOE spells take a 25% damage penalty since they attack all enemies, 903 * 3/4 = 677.25. 675 drain to all enemies is balanced.
For Frost Giant: This level 48 spell deals 460 damage and stuns all enemies. An AOE stun cost 2 pips, so that leaves 5 pips worth of damage to deal to all enemies. 460/5 = 92 damage per pip. The level 48 7-pip AOEs are unique in that they do not have the 25% damage penalty for attacking all enemies like other AOEs (If that was the case, however, Frost Giant would only deal 345 damage to all enemies...big oof). This spell is balanced since it deals damage and has an AOE utility.
So are you saying Ice should deal more damage than Storm and still stun? Fire has no utility for fire dragon and also dots are suppose to be the strongest type of spell in the game so you can't compare something like Frost Giant's damage + stun to Fire Dragon.
I did not know Storm Lord did only 690, sorry but Frost Giant and Storm Lord need a buff
Actually, in my opinion, Kingsisle should nerf Scarcrow slightly. By nerfing Scarecrow, it would make Lulu more useful. Personally, I don't even use Lulu anymore on my Death. I just use Deer Knight for a first turn kill or wait for a second turn to use Scarecrow.
Then there's the variants of Scarecrow. Kingisle should buff variants of Scarecrow like Ominous Scarecrow which is really weak. Scarecrow is 7 pips and deals 590 lifestealing to all while Ominous Scarecrow is 8 pips and deals either 525 or 550 lifestealing to all. You can't even enhance Ominous Scarecrow. It definitely deserves a buff.
Storm lord needs a buff???? are you serious? Its 690 base damage and a stun to all enemies base! Storm lord needs a NERF if anything
K., fine but frost giant needs to be 540 because fire dragon is just BRUH. Like 530 at the beginning, ok good, according to some other dude 460+ stun is balanced but how does Fire dragon deserve to do more and then the over time ends up being only a bit less than frost giant and storm lord COMBINED. and that other time is only 3 rounds, frost giant has to be like at least 540 and you cant say that an AoE stun equals out 435 damage over 3 rounds and 80 more damage at the first hit, plus fire dragon has an AoE over time which makes to OP and does more damage than storm which is literally the STRONGEST school.
K., fine but frost giant needs to be 540 because fire dragon is just BRUH. Like 530 at the beginning, ok good, according to some other dude 460+ stun is balanced but how does Fire dragon deserve to do more and then the over time ends up being only a bit less than frost giant and storm lord COMBINED. and that other time is only 3 rounds, frost giant has to be like at least 540 and you cant say that an AoE stun equals out 435 damage over 3 rounds and 80 more damage at the first hit, plus fire dragon has an AoE over time which makes to OP and does more damage than storm which is literally the STRONGEST school.
Storm is the strongest school in base damage, damage over time will always be stronger than a base-hit.
In perspective, Frost Giant deals double the amount of damage Blizzard does plus it has a stun for only 7 pips, in retrospective, a spell dealing about double the amount of a 4-pip spell should be 8 pips.
People are mentioning Fire Dragon, Storm Lord, Scarecrow, and Frost Giant so it is important to make this distinction. These are examples of the level 48 spells which did NOT take a 25% damage penalty that is usually applied to AOEs. The same applies for Power Nova, Orthorus, and Forest Lord as well.
I'll do the math to show that each of the spells being discussed is balanced.
Fire Dragon: All DoT are allowed to have 25% more damage since the damage is dealt over three rounds. 540 + 435 = 975 damage total. 975 / 1.25 = 780 damage. 780 / 7 = 111.43 damage per pip. At the beginning of the game, fire spells start off with dealing 100 damage per pip on average. 111.43/100 = 11.43% increase in DPP.
Storm Lord: This spell deals damage and has an AoE utility of stunning all enemies. This costs 2 pips. 7 - 2 = 5, hence, this spell deals 5 pips worth of damage since the other 2 pips are used for a utility. 690 / 5 = 138 damage per pip. At the beginning of the game, storm spells start off with dealing 125 damage per pip on average. 138/125 = 10.4% increase in DPP.
Scarecrow: To be completely honest, I am not sure how much a drain costs in terms of pips (or if they cost anything at all) since drains are a utility. However, playing with numbers, it seems that the drain costs three quarters of a pip. Hence, that would leave 6.25 pips worth of damage. 590 / 6.25 = 94.4 damage per pip At the beginning of the game, death spells start off with dealing 85 damage per pip on average. 94.4/85 = 11.06% increase in damage per pip.
Frost Giant: This spell deals damage and has an AoE utility of stunning all enemies. This costs 2 pips. Therefore, this spell deals 5 pips worth of damage since the other 2 pips are used for a utility. 460 / 5 = 92 damage per pip At the beginning of the game, ice spells start off with dealing 83 damage per pip on average. 92/83 = 10.84% increase in DPP.
Twinabc has does a good job of explaining why these spells do the damage they do. It's all based on a mathematical formula. There is also a very nice article on the Final Bastion fansite that explains the math and reasoning behind the spell audits in great detail. Simply put, all the spells that have been audited thus far do fall in-line with the new damage curve. The only current exception are the Rank 7 spells which do not get the typical -25% damage reduction that other "attack all" spells do. You could argue that the developers have therefore already bent their own rules... but if anything were to ever be changed it would probably be giving the Rank 7 spells the normal -25% damage reduction rather than bending the rules everywhere else too. If your suggestions for changing spells is based entirely on whatever "feels right" to you but has no consideration for the actual math that determines spell damage then your feedback is very likely going to fall on deaf ears.
People are mentioning Fire Dragon, Storm Lord, Scarecrow, and Frost Giant so it is important to make this distinction. These are examples of the level 48 spells which did NOT take a 25% damage penalty that is usually applied to AOEs. The same applies for Power Nova, Orthorus, and Forest Lord as well.
I'll do the math to show that each of the spells being discussed is balanced.
Fire Dragon: All DoT are allowed to have 25% more damage since the damage is dealt over three rounds. 540 + 435 = 975 damage total. 975 / 1.25 = 780 damage. 780 / 7 = 111.43 damage per pip. At the beginning of the game, fire spells start off with dealing 100 damage per pip on average. 111.43/100 = 11.43% increase in DPP.
Storm Lord: This spell deals damage and has an AoE utility of stunning all enemies. This costs 2 pips. 7 - 2 = 5, hence, this spell deals 5 pips worth of damage since the other 2 pips are used for a utility. 690 / 5 = 138 damage per pip. At the beginning of the game, storm spells start off with dealing 125 damage per pip on average. 138/125 = 10.4% increase in DPP.
Scarecrow: To be completely honest, I am not sure how much a drain costs in terms of pips (or if they cost anything at all) since drains are a utility. However, playing with numbers, it seems that the drain costs three quarters of a pip. Hence, that would leave 6.25 pips worth of damage. 590 / 6.25 = 94.4 damage per pip At the beginning of the game, death spells start off with dealing 85 damage per pip on average. 94.4/85 = 11.06% increase in damage per pip.
Frost Giant: This spell deals damage and has an AoE utility of stunning all enemies. This costs 2 pips. Therefore, this spell deals 5 pips worth of damage since the other 2 pips are used for a utility. 460 / 5 = 92 damage per pip At the beginning of the game, ice spells start off with dealing 83 damage per pip on average. 92/83 = 10.84% increase in DPP.
Yes but DoT has over 50& more damage, 435 is NOT 25 percent of 540 and it has the highest increase of DDP whatever DDP is. OK now let's look at Scarecrow, I am fine with Death being strong and all but according to you list Ice just is horrible. Ok so first let's compare it with fire and storm, well it is obviously weaker then both of them, its weaker than storm because, well storm is the strongest school. Fire, well it should be stronger than the first hit and then weaker then the whole DoT, its not, that should be fixed even with the stun, its just not fair because storm is stronger anyway, so there is basically no point of having frost giant because storm is stronger and also stuns and fire does more damage on first hit, plus DoT, over than Ice having the least amount of chance it will fizzle(80%). Now lets look at scarecrow so frost giant and scarecrow both have utility so lets cancel that out. Now scarecrow does more damage and it totally destroys the point of Ice having a smaller fizzle chance then storm and fire because Death's chance that it wont fizzle is 85%!!! thats more than ice which defeats the purpose of it being better than storm and fire because it fizzles less and it makes ice just the weakest one of them all, thats not fair to Ice wizards like myself, so frost giant DEFINITELY needs a buff. You proven that yourself. Fire has the biggest increase in DPP and nothing here is balanced because ice is just the weakest. And I hate when the thing i have in a certain game appears to be weaker than other things at its level.
Yes but DoT has over 50& more damage, 435 is NOT 25 percent of 540 and it has the highest increase of DDP whatever DDP is. OK now let's look at Scarecrow, I am fine with Death being strong and all but according to you list Ice just is horrible. Ok so first let's compare it with fire and storm, well it is obviously weaker then both of them, its weaker than storm because, well storm is the strongest school. Fire, well it should be stronger than the first hit and then weaker then the whole DoT, its not, that should be fixed even with the stun, its just not fair because storm is stronger anyway, so there is basically no point of having frost giant because storm is stronger and also stuns and fire does more damage on first hit, plus DoT, over than Ice having the least amount of chance it will fizzle(80%). Now lets look at scarecrow so frost giant and scarecrow both have utility so lets cancel that out. Now scarecrow does more damage and it totally destroys the point of Ice having a smaller fizzle chance then storm and fire because Death's chance that it wont fizzle is 85%!!! thats more than ice which defeats the purpose of it being better than storm and fire because it fizzles less and it makes ice just the weakest one of them all, thats not fair to Ice wizards like myself, so frost giant DEFINITELY needs a buff. You proven that yourself. Fire has the biggest increase in DPP and nothing here is balanced because ice is just the weakest. And I hate when the thing i have in a certain game appears to be weaker than other things at its level.
The way your response is written is kind of confusing so I'll try to address everything that you mentioned.
First, regarding Fire Dragon, I believe you might be misunderstanding so let me clarify. The amount of damage in total that a DoT spell deals is 25% more than what a spell would deal if it is a single hit since the damage is dealt with an initial hit and the remaining over three rounds. For Fire Dragon, the way the damage is distributed is that the initial first hit to all enemies is strong and the amount of damage dealt over three rounds to all enemies is less.
As far as Frost Giant, ice has the lowest DPP along with life. An AoE stun cost two pips (see Choke and Blinding Light spells for reference). This leaves 5 pips worth for damage. That is why the damage for Frost Giant seems really low since it carries an expensive utility. Storm Lord carries that same expensive utility as well, so that is why it only deals 5 pips worth of damage too.
You talk about spell accuracy in your post which I'm happy about because I actually made a forum post regarding spell accuracy for ice spells. From studying the spell accuracies of all schools and how they relate to DPP, I believe one of the biggest buffs that ice should get is increasing their spell accuracies to 90% for non-shadow spells and 85% for shadow spells to match with the accuracy of life spells. Since ice and life deals the same amount of DPP, it always fascinated me how the accuracy of ice spells is 10% less than the accuracy of life spells. I would be interested to hear the developers' justification for giving ice school spells an accuracy of 80% and 75% for non-shadow spells and shadow spells, respectively.
The way your response is written is kind of confusing so I'll try to address everything that you mentioned.
First, regarding Fire Dragon, I believe you might be misunderstanding so let me clarify. The amount of damage in total that a DoT spell deals is 25% more than what a spell would deal if it is a single hit since the damage is dealt with an initial hit and the remaining over three rounds. For Fire Dragon, the way the damage is distributed is that the initial first hit to all enemies is strong and the amount of damage dealt over three rounds to all enemies is less.
As far as Frost Giant, ice has the lowest DPP along with life. An AoE stun cost two pips (see Choke and Blinding Light spells for reference). This leaves 5 pips worth for damage. That is why the damage for Frost Giant seems really low since it carries an expensive utility. Storm Lord carries that same expensive utility as well, so that is why it only deals 5 pips worth of damage too.
You talk about spell accuracy in your post which I'm happy about because I actually made a forum post regarding spell accuracy for ice spells. From studying the spell accuracies of all schools and how they relate to DPP, I believe one of the biggest buffs that ice should get is increasing their spell accuracies to 90% for non-shadow spells and 85% for shadow spells to match with the accuracy of life spells. Since ice and life deals the same amount of DPP, it always fascinated me how the accuracy of ice spells is 10% less than the accuracy of life spells. I would be interested to hear the developers' justification for giving ice school spells an accuracy of 80% and 75% for non-shadow spells and shadow spells, respectively.
The way your response is written is kind of confusing so I'll try to address everything that you mentioned.
First, regarding Fire Dragon, I believe you might be misunderstanding so let me clarify. The amount of damage in total that a DoT spell deals is 25% more than what a spell would deal if it is a single hit since the damage is dealt with an initial hit and the remaining over three rounds. For Fire Dragon, the way the damage is distributed is that the initial first hit to all enemies is strong and the amount of damage dealt over three rounds to all enemies is less.
As far as Frost Giant, ice has the lowest DPP along with life. An AoE stun cost two pips (see Choke and Blinding Light spells for reference). This leaves 5 pips worth for damage. That is why the damage for Frost Giant seems really low since it carries an expensive utility. Storm Lord carries that same expensive utility as well, so that is why it only deals 5 pips worth of damage too.
You talk about spell accuracy in your post which I'm happy about because I actually made a forum post regarding spell accuracy for ice spells. From studying the spell accuracies of all schools and how they relate to DPP, I believe one of the biggest buffs that ice should get is increasing their spell accuracies to 90% for non-shadow spells and 85% for shadow spells to match with the accuracy of life spells. Since ice and life deals the same amount of DPP, it always fascinated me how the accuracy of ice spells is 10% less than the accuracy of life spells. I would be interested to hear the developers' justification for giving ice school spells an accuracy of 80% and 75% for non-shadow spells and shadow spells, respectively.
death has a lower average damage for most health draining spells than ice, fire also has sometimes a lower average damage, ice is right below balance in terms of damage, you can compare blizzard and sandstorm and you will see that sandstorm is only 10 damage higher, and life has a lower DPP and also why does fire have a higher DPP than storm in this case if storm is the strongest school. That was one of the points I was trying to make.
had a damage reduction from 1120 to 940 and they lost the enfeeble that came with it. Myth also had the damage from Collossus cut and now only removes one shield, Ice had weaver damage reduction and the shield was reduced from -75 to -50. Ratbeard releases dev diaries on the reasons for the nerfs. We were on track for a storm spell to do well over 2000 base damage before any enchants and multipliers. These spells would be used against us. That is not difficulty, that is unnecessary.
