I'm posting this because KI doesn't seem to understand a very basic fact about role playing games.
Leveling is critical for player enjoyment.
Not just leveling to get certain things, but leveling itself.
Getting a new level, watching experience points build, getting a new skill or a new piece of equipment, or just a stat boost. All of those things are part of what makes the game truly enjoyable for most RPGers. Getting experience and getting that next level is THE reward that the majority strive for.
When levels are done away with, something else has to replace them, such as skills that gain levels.
In any game where leveling stops and nothing takes its place, the game becomes boring rapidly.
This is the reason that every time a new update is announced, the boards are flooded with questions about a level cap extension.
But just lifting the cap is not going to fix anything. The cap needs to go away completely. Monsters need to modify their attacks and defenses, and how much experience they give out per the level of the person attacking them and the world they are in.
The game is two years old. It's still growing as new people discover it, but a lot of the player base is getting jaded. You can only make new characters so many times, do the same quests so many times, before you find something else to do. If the level cap issue isn't dealt with in the next couple of years, the player base will drop drastically.
I couldn't agree with you more. I was actually going to post something like this but figured, that I shouldn't bother because it won't happen anytime soon. Since it is such a big overhaul and many people might be upset with it when it first happens the game designers are going to be hesitant to do something about it.
Right now quests give so much experience, compared to how much you need to level up. If quests gave less of experience needed to level up and regular fights gave more players could have better control over what level the are when they get to certain places. They way things are now you are very limited on what levels you can be in certain areas.
If a life wizard wants to be a couple levels higher than whats "normal" to get through a part of the game thats tough for life wizards, they can't really do that if they are up to date with quests because fighting enemies gives such a useless amount of exp.
If fights gave more exp than not only can wizards spend time to level up to get through parts of the game that may be difficult for them and also level up at their own pace, but they would also be busy and entertained longer by doing battles that aren't part of quests.
This give developers more time in between large updates. There are tons of benefits to this system...you could tweak drop rates, add more varieties of gear so wizards have better control over exactly how offensive/defensive thy want their gear to be and even get some sort of in game economy going so that the players can decide the value of items and start trading directly with other players.
The downside is the amount of testing needed and then the actual implementation of the new system. It would screw things up for a lot of people at first and it would take some getting used to but in the long run it adds more replay value and entertainment over a longer period of time which is the goal if you are charging for subscriptions over time.
The problem is, every time you gain a level, your stats grow. If there wasn't a level cap, the players would be too strong when new worlds came out. Despite this, I think KI would remove the level cap, but I don't think their computers allow that. You have to load each level individually, and figure out the amount of experience for the next level. The solution to fixing that is to put the level cap at level 100 or 1000 or something crazy like that. But then the former problem would come in, and the new worlds would be no challenge to people who spend all their time leveling, and the message boards would be filled with posts about how the new world is so EASY. William Crowthistle Legendary Pyromancer
I do not like the level cap and also wish it abolished. Having another level gives a tangible goal to strive for. Seeing that exp bar fill gives a sense of accomplishment.
Instead of giving stats or level increase, how about a compromise? Re-earning lvl 60. Have the exp bar reset back to the 59 level and let us re-earn 60. Each time we accomplish this, give us a reward that will not unduly impact future updates, but will still be worth the accomplishment. Perhaps a max HP and Mana increase? Maybe the surplus exp gained goes to our pets? Maybe just a simple globe in our house that will slowly fill up and glow?
First of all I am an older person who has been playing this game for about 2 years. I have 2 accounts, 1 for me and my wife, 1 for our 5 children. I have 2 level 60 wizards, a level 53 and 2 level 34 wizards. My wife who recently started playing is level 46. One of my children has reached level 60 and stopped playing because of wasted exp. she hasn't completed celestia. Also I have not completed celestia with my 2 level 60 wizards for the same reason. I continue to play my lower level wizards but only use my level 60 wizards to help my children who are higher level. I was very disappointed when wintertusk came out without a level increase, as were all my children. How can we continue questing when all of the exp. is wasted? If there is no level increase soon 2 more of my children will stop playing. At some point it will become useless to continue paying for these accounts. Please KI fix this problem, as all my family really enjoy playing together. Also i would like to thank KI for making this a family friendly game. Also I have read some posts about questing for the sake of questing, not for the reward. We are all entitled to our opinions, but in my opinion questing without getting the exp. from the quest is a waste. Sorry if you don't agree with me.
Grizzleheim and Wintertusk are optional worlds. I'm surprised KI even gives out experience at all, since most wizards max out levels without ever visiting either of those worlds. Similar situation for Briskbreeze Tower, The Warehouse and the Waterworks. All those zones cannot even be started until your max level (50 and 60). Should new levels be given for them too?
There are other progression methods within Wizard 101 (badges, gear, etc). I believe KI's main goal with the release of Wintertusk was to reveal more of the optional storyline that is happening in parallel with the Malistaire/Morganthe storyline. That is the reward itself. Incentives include new spells, better gear and class pets. Since all this is optional, requiring more level grinding would be counterproductive (it would force wizards who don't want anything to do with GH or WT to have to fight there to level up).
Remember for every person who asks for more levels, there is another asking for MMO's to track progression in a different way. Lots of people would like levels to go away completely since all it really shows is how much level grinding you did, not any type of skill. Check out the two latest issues of Beckett Massive Online Gamer for more discussions about this.
Remember for every person who asks for more levels, there is another asking for MMO's to track progression in a different way.
That's the point. This MMO uses levels, so leveling has to be a continuing thing. Not go to a certain point and then stop.
the others that track something other than levels have the same issue. They have to provide something that never stops tracking progress or their players do get bored and leave.
But regardless of how other MMOs track, this game uses levels, and for the vast majority of the players, THE MAIN REWARD and indeed for a lot the only REAL reward, is that next level and what comes with it.
I never really thought the purpose of leveling was to show off any skill at all, I mean the best player in the game started at level one. I don't think the level cap needs to be removed completely. Every RPG game that I know of has had a level cap. I just think the experience system needs to be tweaked. First of all, game designers are supposed to be good at math. I don't see how or why they distributed EXP rewards so that people can reach the cap before they even finish the main storyline.
If they tweaked it so that all the experience from quests amounted to the player being 10 or 15 or even 20 levels below the level cap, the fights you need to do to complete the quests give you about 5 levels (can't be exact on that one) then you could have 5 or 10 levels you can gain on your own, whenever you felt like.
You could either grind a little at certain hard part of the game to get past a hard part, or you could level your guy up after you beat the main storyline to get some extra replay value.
Lets say by the end of the Celestia storyline the level cap is at 100. I believe the correct way to balance the experience is to make it so by the end of the game with out any grinding you are level 80ish. That way the casual gamers can beat the game without worrying about reaching the level cap early and the more serious gamers can work on "Maxing out" their characters all while replaying their favorite bosses/dungeons and trying to get whatever gear they want.
The game designers for Wizard101 are great. The graphics are great and the characters (especially the teachers) have great personality. The schools are very well balanced as far as I can tell. The leveling up system though could have used more thought. They could have looked at other games to find out what worked and what didn't and worked from there. In fact I THOUGHT the leveling up system was great at first. We were always the level we needed to be to have just the right amount of challenge in the game but reaching level 60 before beating Celestia too me is a huge flaw. I hope you consider making changes and start testing different ideas soon :)
LOL " Ithought game designers were good at math" EXACTLY!!
The only other MMO I ever played was Pirates and gave up because after hitting lvl 40 something I ran out of quests. I was left to gring my way to lvl 60 ugh. They came out with a couple short quests but mostly grind. :? I fell in love with wizards because the quests were seemingly never ending, and now I see how much truth there really is to that. Here at wizards we have an opposite problem, quests with more exp than can be contained in the cap, and always posts by the hundreads for new areas. (you'll have that anyway) With new areas have to come new quests, and story lines, and with that more exp to be awarded,......but nowhere to go. Just a thought but the side quests may be giving a little too much reward. I know on Krok and Marley bone they give a lot, but I went through the main story line without doing most of them. I later did it to either get it out of my quest book or because they were just standing there with a over their head. 8) Now Wintertusk is live, I'm almost lvl 58 Myth, and am paused at the district of the stars on Celestia. Only been playing since summer 2010 when kids dragged me to the computer center and I made an account. :-o :P Already scared of what the future DOESN"T hold for my character. :( Yeah better dispersement of exp through side quests. Side on main islands is too high, while side worlds are left in the dust, even Celestia - maybe especially Celestia. The billions of things to do on Marleybone etc. that give out 2000+ 3000+ exp need to be trimed in order to include enough gain for a side world, quest, storyline, to exist. Even partially. Finished Crab Alley first day back live and considered - as I looked at all the smaller characters around me - how it was unfair that they just had one more way, actually two, to max out without ever defeating malistaire. It is a real possibility. Imagine a day in the commons, a new wizard comes in game, just got unlimited, Yaya he's soooooo excited And a lv 60 Legendary is standing in front of him. (Wow He's done it all) :-o!! So he askes if he can go to malistaire and the lv60 replies, I don't have access to that location. :(
The biggest problem, and this sums up everything that everyone has posted in this thread, is that the game wasn't originally designed as an online MMO should be (yeah, I've designed, programed, and run a couple).
it was originally designed as stand alone RPGs are, with a final goal where the game should end.
Originally the game ended when you beat Malistair. However KI very rapidly realized that wasn't going to work for online if they wanted to keep their paying customers. So now they are patching right and left to add more stuff, but not really fixing things they way they need to be fixed..
In the original design, you got plenty of xp and when you got to Malistair you were high enough in level for a challenge. That game balance is all gone now that there are other worlds.
To do this right, the entire game needs to be redesigned with the idea that there ISN'T an end, that it ISN'T a stand alone game that's been put online, that players WILL continue to want to level and grow forever.
There are plenty of ways to do that, including changing the battle system so that the MOBS (computer controled enemies) modify their attacks and defenses based on things such as the level of the player attacking them, the world they are in, the min level attacker they are designed for and so on, but yeah that's a lot of work.
However, there are critical flaws in the game that are only going to get worse the more attempts to patch the bad design are made. At some point, either that redesign is going to have to happen, or the game will self-destruct. Paying customers will become jaded and bored (already happening a lot), and the game will become a money loser instead of a money maker.
While yes, I agree the level cap system and set up needs to be adjusted it is only part of the system.
What if the worlds only existed to mindlessly grind and just gain experience and leveling up if there was no storyline or plot behind it? Isn't that just as bad as completing a quest that gives 15,xxx XP but not being able to earn any of it?
I do not like the level cap and also wish it abolished. Having another level gives a tangible goal to strive for. Seeing that exp bar fill gives a sense of accomplishment. Instead of giving stats or level increase, how about a compromise? Re-earning lvl 60. Have the exp bar reset back to the 59 level and let us re-earn 60. Each time we accomplish this, give us a reward that will not unduly impact future updates, but will still be worth the accomplishment. Perhaps a max HP and Mana increase? Maybe the surplus exp gained goes to our pets? Maybe just a simple globe in our house that will slowly fill up and glow? Thoughts? Devin Darksong lvl 60 Death Digby Darksong lvl 60 Life Duncan Darksong lvl 60 balance Dylan Darksong lvl 60 Storm Dustan Darksong lvl 60 Myth Dolan Darksong lvl 60 Ice
maybe it could be set up that at level 60 your xp bar could clear out, then when you fill it, you can trade the xp in for a bonus of your choosing to make your characters a little customizable. like you can trade in for +2% damage, resist, or accuracy towards the school of your choice, or +20 max health or mana. nothing huge, but still something to strive for. seems odd that we get no natural increases in stats as we level besides to health, mana and power pip chance. -eli and crew
While yes, I agree the level cap system and set up needs to be adjusted it is only part of the system.
What if the worlds only existed to mindlessly grind and just gain experience and leveling up if there was no storyline or plot behind it? Isn't that just as bad as completing a quest that gives 15,xxx XP but not being able to earn any of it?
Yes, this here is the same argument that I have. Leveling is just leveling. An RPG is suppose to be immersive, feel like you are there. I shouldn't feel like I'm nobody until I'm level 60. How about all the new players that are just starting. Level 60 is a high mountain to climb, shouldn't the objective be learning about the Spiral and saving it, not simply getting to level 60? All the while facing new enemies that cheat or require completely different strategies (and the goal to overcome)? No one reads a book to say "I finished it." No they read the book to learn the story. I'm not calling for the removal of the levels completely, but I think KI has a good balance of leveling with other forms of advancement. Even Everquest and World of Warcraft do not increase the level cap for every new world either. Those games offer "alternate advancement" that leads to new spells. KI has done the same with Wintertusk, except they left off the mind-numbing "re-leveling" to get those new spells.
8) Now Wintertusk is live, I'm almost lvl 58 Myth, and am paused at the district of the stars on Celestia. Only been playing since summer 2010 when kids dragged me to the computer center and I made an account. :- :(
Scratch that I haven't finished wintertusk yet, still not through floating land, Already lvl 60 and don't have my lvl 58 spell or pet yet.
I do not like the level cap and also wish it abolished. Having another level gives a tangible goal to strive for. Seeing that exp bar fill gives a sense of accomplishment. Instead of giving stats or level increase, how about a compromise? Re-earning lvl 60. Have the exp bar reset back to the 59 level and let us re-earn 60. Each time we accomplish this, give us a reward that will not unduly impact future updates, but will still be worth the accomplishment. Perhaps a max HP and Mana increase? Maybe the surplus exp gained goes to our pets? Maybe just a simple globe in our house that will slowly fill up and glow? Thoughts? Devin Darksong lvl 60 Death Digby Darksong lvl 60 Life Duncan Darksong lvl 60 balance Dylan Darksong lvl 60 Storm Dustan Darksong lvl 60 Myth Dolan Darksong lvl 60 Ice
maybe it could be set up that at level 60 your xp bar could clear out, then when you fill it, you can trade the xp in for a bonus of your choosing to make your characters a little customizable. like you can trade in for +2% damage, resist, or accuracy towards the school of your choice, or +20 max health or mana. nothing huge, but still something to strive for. seems odd that we get no natural increases in stats as we level besides to health, mana and power pip chance. -eli and crew
That seems nice. As does the Idea of the person who you replied to.
The problem is, every time you gain a level, your stats grow. If there wasn't a level cap, the players would be too strong when new worlds came out. Despite this, I think KI would remove the level cap, but I don't think their computers allow that. You have to load each level individually, and figure out the amount of experience for the next level. The solution to fixing that is to put the level cap at level 100 or 1000 or something crazy like that. But then the former problem would come in, and the new worlds would be no challenge to people who spend all their time leveling, and the message boards would be filled with posts about how the new world is so EASY. William Crowthistle Legendary Pyromancer
I'd like the game to be easier. Marleybone is too hard, I hate how there's NO SIDEWALKS.
Maybe I'm one of few, but the level cap doesn't really bother me. It's just whetting my appetite for future game updates when there will be new caps. Of course, I'm generally easy to please. I love computer games, and I tend to be good at them. Tend being operative word. W101 has been a challenge, and a welcome one. Some games out there are so difficult to play that you can't even be sure you're logged on, and some are so easy that they aren't worth bothering with. W101 hits kind of the middle. Just go with the flow. That's my life's philosophy.
Yes, this here is the same argument that I have. Leveling is just leveling. An RPG is suppose to be immersive, feel like you are there. I shouldn't feel like I'm nobody until I'm level 60. How about all the new players that are just starting. Level 60 is a high mountain to climb, shouldn't the objective be learning about the Spiral and saving it, not simply getting to level 60? All the while facing new enemies that cheat or require completely different strategies (and the goal to overcome)?
That is what I miss most about the game. It's why I started playing in the first place. Being a wizard and battling the forces of evil was more important than being maxed or better than other wizards. I hardly see any people playing the game for the joy of it. It's all about leveling, getting gear, being powerful. ZZZZZZ....
As for leveling. Many of us played for over a year with no level cap increase. Leveling is not the be all, end all. It's nice, but why play the game just to level? There is so much more to it.
over their head.
8)
And a lv 60 Legendary is standing in front of him. (Wow He's done it all) :-o!! So he askes if he can go to malistaire and the lv60 replies, I don't have access to that location. :( 