I'm going to start by giving my point of view of why Myth is fundamentally undesirable in team PvP, and then how we can fix that without disturbing the essence of the school too much.
First, why is Myth undesirable as a hitter or a support?
1) The most popular strategy for boss fights (buff the hammer) incentivizes all players to learn the triple blade spells from Niles in Krok. Because the 2 strongest hitter schools by DPP are both on one version (Elemental), supporting players are extremely encouraged to pack more copies of one version over the other. Essentially, Elemental Blade and Spirit Blade may have the same % boost on print, but Elemental is undeniably way more valuable in practice. Therefore, without having any general reason or ability to buff the Myth hitter when a Fire or Storm hitter is available, most boss fights are finished with the Myth player being ignored.
2) Myth's minion utility is overrepresented and overrated. Why? Minions become less helpful as we become higher in the game but areliterally unusable in a 4 person boss fight. Which means a Myth wizard will never have access to half of their spell roster when in a 4v4 situation. And if that wasn't enough, all of the other 6 schools, every single one gets multiple minions each. Strong minions too. This generally leaves Myth in an awkward place of not only being not very useful, but not even being fundamentally unique.
What do I propose ?
Change Myth to be the pip manipulator school instead of Balance.
Why ? In order for Myth to be desirable, we have to able to offer something to the team that will make us stand out. That's why I think Myth's spells should embrace the pip manipulation utility instead of Balance. I'm thinking Earthquake and Basilisk in particular would be very good candidates for a little pip burning utility instead of what they currently have. Or even a Myth version of Mana Burn instead of Dimensional Shift? I'm saying give us something that we can use in a boss fight. Every other school has attributes that can add value to a 4v4. Allowing Myth reign of pip manipulation will only give the school a fighting chance to be a desired member of the team instead of always being third runner up.
I disagree that Myth needs to be a Pip Manipulator. Death steps on Balance's toes enough.
Ice and Myth are perceived as not valuable in a Team setting because Jade Death's/Life's can outheal any defense that Ice offers and that Fire and Storm out hit Myth's damage.
Myth and Ice both have stuns (sadly, I would argue that Myth is a better stunner than Ice is). and there should be more an emphasis on that or better use of their current abilities or metrics.
Some better alternatives than completely changing the school identity for Myth to a Pip Manipulator would be to possibly make it have more access to minions that are like the Shadow spells from Early Khrysalis remember the ones that had a shadow form that would pop-up and then after a few rounds would do something based on "likes" and "dislikes" Dark Shepard, Dark Seraph, Dark Nova those ones? I think that summoning minions in this type of fashion (for regular pips as in the current meta shadow pips are too expensive) might be a better idea. Imagine: a Conjurer summons a regular minion, a Monstrology Minon, the Shadow and then can summon a little helper gremlin that stands next to them like a pet or in front of them or clings off their staff. There could be different types, but basically each turn it would cast a helpful spell. Most features/mechanics I don't think should be "exclusive" but they should be better done by classes (i.e. ever school should have a heal and a minion, but Life and Myth should be better at it than other schools respectively).
Moral of the story: Yes, Myth (and Ice) need help in a Team PVE situation: there should be other viable strategies other than just alpha-striking. However, they shouldn't completely steal from another school's identity to get there.
I don't think changing something so fundamental to the spirit of the game is a good idea, and I don't think it's necessary to make Myth viable. Minions not being viable past Arc 1 is a shame, but Myth isn't hurt that badly by this. It's not really focused on minions anymore. Even if it were, I'd be more on board with something to make minions viable again, instead of reworking the early game from the ground up.
I'm especially not on board with changing Earthquake, I think there's been too much messing with the spirit of the spell roster in the past few updates.
Team PvP has a bunch of issues, not least of which there doesn't seem to be much happening. Myth isn't top-tier at high level, but I don't see the school as lacking in general. It's fun and capable for most of the game.
Myth has fairly high health, decent damage, a native heal, and an amazing array of manipulations. It's the only school that can have more than one minion active. It can stun, remove shields, shift over-time damage, clear traps, do over-time and double hit attacks, and more. The one glaring shortcoming -- a mid-level AoE was corrected with the update to Orthrus.
I'd love to see improvements to make minions useful again, but I don't see a need to redefine the school or make overall changes to it. It's IMMENSELY useful in many boss fights, and if you want to make your character more valuable as team support, there are many spells available from gear, pets, TC, and training points -- buffs, de-buffs, heals, pip-steal, shields, etc.
I disagree that Myth needs to be a Pip Manipulator. Death steps on Balance's toes enough.
Ice and Myth are perceived as not valuable in a Team setting because Jade Death's/Life's can outheal any defense that Ice offers and that Fire and Storm out hit Myth's damage.
Myth and Ice both have stuns (sadly, I would argue that Myth is a better stunner than Ice is). and there should be more an emphasis on that or better use of their current abilities or metrics.
Some better alternatives than completely changing the school identity for Myth to a Pip Manipulator would be to possibly make it have more access to minions that are like the Shadow spells from Early Khrysalis remember the ones that had a shadow form that would pop-up and then after a few rounds would do something based on "likes" and "dislikes" Dark Shepard, Dark Seraph, Dark Nova those ones? I think that summoning minions in this type of fashion (for regular pips as in the current meta shadow pips are too expensive) might be a better idea. Imagine: a Conjurer summons a regular minion, a Monstrology Minon, the Shadow and then can summon a little helper gremlin that stands next to them like a pet or in front of them or clings off their staff. There could be different types, but basically each turn it would cast a helpful spell. Most features/mechanics I don't think should be "exclusive" but they should be better done by classes (i.e. ever school should have a heal and a minion, but Life and Myth should be better at it than other schools respectively).
Moral of the story: Yes, Myth (and Ice) need help in a Team PVE situation: there should be other viable strategies other than just alpha-striking. However, they shouldn't completely steal from another school's identity to get there.
shadow style minions is such a great idea that so sad the minions become useless or a boost breaker so fast but at the same time giving full control about what minions do would be too OP.
i had an idea but i want some feedback about if its not op/useless maybe the minions(not only myth ones) should have a minimum cost but X cost that add stats : troll minion cost 1-3 pip actually he become 2-7 pip very aggressive 2 pip is a troll with 300 hp 1 initial pip 10% outgoing 10% resist die at the end of 3 turns 7 pip 1300 hp 3 initial pip 30%dmg 5%resist die at the end of turn 5 each pip added give him 200 hp 0.5 pip (1 more pip at 4 and 6) 4% dmg boost but -1%resist blading him add 1 turn, shield remove 1 turn his spell evolve too like 7 pip cast tough troll instead of troll
for the opposite team putting a negative cast a no pip gain aura on him for 2 turn but stealing a blade cast a double pip aura for 2 turn
some minion could be weak against spiritual, other changing school, some stun resist and ripost if we try to stun them
if each minions can have an interest at high lvl for high cost that could be a great improvement for a myth unique play style
but that wont correct the interest of a myth hitter on hardest dungeon cuz we often 4 wizards but if a minion is cast and block a battle spot thats not necessary until the end of the battle but only few turns for the good and the bad.
what do you think about that? my myth is lvl 15 so maybe i'm totally wrong
I disagree that Myth needs to be a Pip Manipulator. Death steps on Balance's toes enough.
Ice and Myth are perceived as not valuable in a Team setting because Jade Death's/Life's can outheal any defense that Ice offers and that Fire and Storm out hit Myth's damage.
Myth and Ice both have stuns (sadly, I would argue that Myth is a better stunner than Ice is). and there should be more an emphasis on that or better use of their current abilities or metrics.
Some better alternatives than completely changing the school identity for Myth to a Pip Manipulator would be to possibly make it have more access to minions that are like the Shadow spells from Early Khrysalis remember the ones that had a shadow form that would pop-up and then after a few rounds would do something based on "likes" and "dislikes" Dark Shepard, Dark Seraph, Dark Nova those ones? I think that summoning minions in this type of fashion (for regular pips as in the current meta shadow pips are too expensive) might be a better idea. Imagine: a Conjurer summons a regular minion, a Monstrology Minon, the Shadow and then can summon a little helper gremlin that stands next to them like a pet or in front of them or clings off their staff. There could be different types, but basically each turn it would cast a helpful spell. Most features/mechanics I don't think should be "exclusive" but they should be better done by classes (i.e. ever school should have a heal and a minion, but Life and Myth should be better at it than other schools respectively).
Moral of the story: Yes, Myth (and Ice) need help in a Team PVE situation: there should be other viable strategies other than just alpha-striking. However, they shouldn't completely steal from another school's identity to get there.
Fire and Storm also have stuns! Having stuns doesn't make a school special in any way because everyone has them.
Did you miss the whole part where I said you can't even summon minions in a 4 person boss fight? The developers are creating dungeons in the later worlds designed for 4 people. You can't even use minions with 4 people!
Balance's "identity" is that it gets to have a little bit of what every other school has. So making Myth the school of Pip manipulation actually makes way more sense.
It's not fair that Myth gets to be the school of minions when minions get worse as you level up. Every other school gets stronger as they level up but Myth's minions gets weaker at fighting bosses? How does that make sense? My point is that Myth is flawed by design!
Being the school of minions IS NOT SPECIAL when every single one of the 7 schools gets minions!
The thing about myth is that they get decent spells to control the battlefield so a pip manipulator could be an interesting idea. It can help with controlling the battle ring. Tbh myth and ice has kind of fell off their school identity. Now ice is coming along with getting weaker spells (like it's supposed to), but it revealed it's best defensive spells are ones everyone really can get pretty easily and use without loosing momentum. Shout out to the jade life's and deaths. Now myth on the other hand was always stuck to me. It's supposed to be the minion school, but everyone agrees minions stink worse than a gobblers burp.
I was thinking, that a way to improve minions is by reflecting a portion of the players stats. Say 25%-50% of all your stats depending on your minion. The great thing about a few of myths minions are their usages. I think every myth agrees the best ones are the puppet at 0 pips, Talos, and minotaur minion. They are great for certain situations, while the other schools help balance their weaknesses, myth can have one for every situation.
I do like your opinion on pip manipulation though!
Fire and Storm also have stuns! Having stuns doesn't make a school special in any way because everyone has them.
Did you miss the whole part where I said you can't even summon minions in a 4 person boss fight? The developers are creating dungeons in the later worlds designed for 4 people. You can't even use minions with 4 people!
Balance's "identity" is that it gets to have a little bit of what every other school has. So making Myth the school of Pip manipulation actually makes way more sense.
It's not fair that Myth gets to be the school of minions when minions get worse as you level up. Every other school gets stronger as they level up but Myth's minions gets weaker at fighting bosses? How does that make sense? My point is that Myth is flawed by design!
Being the school of minions IS NOT SPECIAL when every single one of the 7 schools gets minions!
Honestly, i think the "battle ring" system would need a overhaul if minions were to ever be in the same battle with a group of 4 players because (if you're familiar with beastmoon) you can only summon minions in rings "except" the spiral because all 4 players are "needed" in the spiral so most of the time if you're on a form that can summon minions then you're hardly ever going to be able to summon them because of the latter unless of course you and your teammates are doing a specific strategy (with minions) but even then as with "any" specific strategy it's not really feasible with new and/or inexperienced players.
btw hope i didn't get too off topic here with beastmoon and sry if i did.
Fire and Storm also have stuns! Having stuns doesn't make a school special in any way because everyone has them.
Did you miss the whole part where I said you can't even summon minions in a 4 person boss fight? The developers are creating dungeons in the later worlds designed for 4 people. You can't even use minions with 4 people!
Balance's "identity" is that it gets to have a little bit of what every other school has. So making Myth the school of Pip manipulation actually makes way more sense.
It's not fair that Myth gets to be the school of minions when minions get worse as you level up. Every other school gets stronger as they level up but Myth's minions gets weaker at fighting bosses? How does that make sense? My point is that Myth is flawed by design!
Being the school of minions IS NOT SPECIAL when every single one of the 7 schools gets minions!
So, the issue with myth is that it has NEEDED to grow, in order to fulfill it's description. As it stood for a LONG time, it's minions sucked. Heck, ALL minions sucked. They died too quickly, they were too unpredictable, etc What's even more "insulting" is that Death had more minions than Myth did (and still does); Myth has 11 &Death has 15. I've commented that this needs to be fixed, and we'll see what happens through the various spell audits. But then something neat happened; Monstrology. Is this a perfect fix? No, BUT, it heavily favors Myth because they're the ONLY school that can fill the duel circle with them, and the summoning cards are myth school (so they can use power pips to summon). All other schools can only use one Monstrology monster at a time.
Things you stated i agree with: when you have a full duel circle, minions/henchmen/monstrology can't help Having stuns doesnt make a school special since 4 schools have spells that stun enemies
Overall, there's too much elitism in this game. "Oh, you're X school? Nope, we dont want you!" is a big thing in this game. There's no way around it because those people who say that are typically farming and want to do it in the fastest time possible to maximize farming.
Fire and Storm also have stuns! Having stuns doesn't make a school special in any way because everyone has them.
Did you miss the whole part where I said you can't even summon minions in a 4 person boss fight? The developers are creating dungeons in the later worlds designed for 4 people. You can't even use minions with 4 people!
Balance's "identity" is that it gets to have a little bit of what every other school has. So making Myth the school of Pip manipulation actually makes way more sense.
It's not fair that Myth gets to be the school of minions when minions get worse as you level up. Every other school gets stronger as they level up but Myth's minions gets weaker at fighting bosses? How does that make sense? My point is that Myth is flawed by design!
Being the school of minions IS NOT SPECIAL when every single one of the 7 schools gets minions!
Hi there,
1. Most abilities should not be "exclusive" to a certain school especially foundational abilities (Arc I mechanics). Certain schools should be better at certain things than other schools (and yes, there needs to be be some changes for the long term) but you miss the point. Almost (poor Ice) every school HAS a Healing spell however that doesn't mean that you are going to have your Fire Wizard out there trying to heal the team with their Power Link spell. Just isn't feasible Life is best suited to healing and Death/Balance to a lesser extent, but the rest of the schools just aren't as equipped to heal even if they technically "can". Fire wizards are the "DOT" school, though essentially every school has access to at least one DOT. The same should be said about Minions. Myth should be the best at Utilizing them (and I would say they are through Monstrology and their variety of minons) but as others have put Minions are not as valued in later game as some of the other mechanics. Which is where the issue truly is.
2. I never said that Stunning was a Myth/Ice exclusive. I just said that I felt that these schools should have more opportunities to use these spells. (I'd be 100% for Storm Lord not having a Stun AOE anyway though because it usually one-shots anyway. I also feel like Smoke Screen is better suited for Fire than Choke is anyway) However, as I said, these abilities I don't think should be "exclusive" just some schools should be better at it than others (like Maybe Ice/Myth could always stun for 2 rounds instead of 1).
3. I proposed a solution to having a minion in a full battle ring: See the large paragraph on my initial post. (Shadow type minions)
4. Balance has had Donate Power since day one and Mana Burn for a looong time (Avalon) and recently also received Steal Pip. I will die on Camp "Be nice to Balance" since it's my favorite school. I'm biased and I acknowledge it. If you are in camp "absolute exclusivity" then I still believe that this should be balance only, if we are in Camp "better utilization by certain schools" as I mentioned earlier, I suppose that Myth can play around with Pips as they did eventually receive Celestial Calendar that has this ability (although Ice received a similar ability at the same time and actually eariler through their King Artorius spell so maybe Ice should be the 2nd Pip Manipulator?)
5. Myth is Minions, but it also is the Highest Spirit School Damage (third highest in game) is the Best at removing shields, and is really good at Stunning, Confusing, hitting through shields and removing charms too. I agree that Myth's minion mechanics should get some more love, but I think it's more that it got "left behind" rather than flawed by design". Storm Bats is a good spell, but if you are in the middle of Azteca and still using Storm Bats as your primary hit-then there are some issues there.
Hope that clarifies, I think the general gist from me anyway is that I hope they buff the minions mechanic (I think my shadow-type minions option) might be a good way to do it, I feel that Pip manipulation is a Balance first mechanic and that schools should have utilization buffs, rather than absolute exclusivity. Which, that last aspect KI seems to be doing and has continued to do for a while now.
Team PvP has a bunch of issues, not least of which there doesn't seem to be much happening. Myth isn't top-tier at high level, but I don't see the school as lacking in general. It's fun and capable for most of the game.
Myth has fairly high health, decent damage, a native heal, and an amazing array of manipulations. It's the only school that can have more than one minion active. It can stun, remove shields, shift over-time damage, clear traps, do over-time and double hit attacks, and more. The one glaring shortcoming -- a mid-level AoE was corrected with the update to Orthrus.
I'd love to see improvements to make minions useful again, but I don't see a need to redefine the school or make overall changes to it. It's IMMENSELY useful in many boss fights, and if you want to make your character more valuable as team support, there are many spells available from gear, pets, TC, and training points -- buffs, de-buffs, heals, pip-steal, shields, etc.
Yes I understand Myth has a lot of gimmicks what I'm asking is what does Myth bring to a boss fight that makes them special ?
3 minions does not replace 3 fully leveled wizards in an end game boss fight
it's very easy for anyone to cast shatter / remove shields with TCs
shifting damage back to a boss sounds nice until you realize they resist their own damage by about 70% on average. Most of Myth's spells are so niche they are either PvP only or PvE only as far as how people use them.
I'm going to need Myth to be more than just a bunch of gimmicks stacked on top of each other. Or at least warn new wizards of this fact at the school selection screen.
1. Most abilities should not be "exclusive" to a certain school especially foundational abilities (Arc I mechanics). Certain schools should be better at certain things than other schools (and yes, there needs to be be some changes for the long term) but you miss the point. Almost (poor Ice) every school HAS a Healing spell however that doesn't mean that you are going to have your Fire Wizard out there trying to heal the team with their Power Link spell. Just isn't feasible Life is best suited to healing and Death/Balance to a lesser extent, but the rest of the schools just aren't as equipped to heal even if they technically "can". Fire wizards are the "DOT" school, though essentially every school has access to at least one DOT. The same should be said about Minions. Myth should be the best at Utilizing them (and I would say they are through Monstrology and their variety of minons) but as others have put Minions are not as valued in later game as some of the other mechanics. Which is where the issue truly is.
2. I never said that Stunning was a Myth/Ice exclusive. I just said that I felt that these schools should have more opportunities to use these spells. (I'd be 100% for Storm Lord not having a Stun AOE anyway though because it usually one-shots anyway. I also feel like Smoke Screen is better suited for Fire than Choke is anyway) However, as I said, these abilities I don't think should be "exclusive" just some schools should be better at it than others (like Maybe Ice/Myth could always stun for 2 rounds instead of 1).
3. I proposed a solution to having a minion in a full battle ring: See the large paragraph on my initial post. (Shadow type minions)
4. Balance has had Donate Power since day one and Mana Burn for a looong time (Avalon) and recently also received Steal Pip. I will die on Camp "Be nice to Balance" since it's my favorite school. I'm biased and I acknowledge it. If you are in camp "absolute exclusivity" then I still believe that this should be balance only, if we are in Camp "better utilization by certain schools" as I mentioned earlier, I suppose that Myth can play around with Pips as they did eventually receive Celestial Calendar that has this ability (although Ice received a similar ability at the same time and actually eariler through their King Artorius spell so maybe Ice should be the 2nd Pip Manipulator?)
5. Myth is Minions, but it also is the Highest Spirit School Damage (third highest in game) is the Best at removing shields, and is really good at Stunning, Confusing, hitting through shields and removing charms too. I agree that Myth's minion mechanics should get some more love, but I think it's more that it got "left behind" rather than flawed by design". Storm Bats is a good spell, but if you are in the middle of Azteca and still using Storm Bats as your primary hit-then there are some issues there.
Hope that clarifies, I think the general gist from me anyway is that I hope they buff the minions mechanic (I think my shadow-type minions option) might be a good way to do it, I feel that Pip manipulation is a Balance first mechanic and that schools should have utilization buffs, rather than absolute exclusivity. Which, that last aspect KI seems to be doing and has continued to do for a while now.
Thanks! Have a good day! :)
The reason why I call Myth flawed by design is because minions are flawed by design. There are just too many factors holding minions back (spell card rng, bad stats, very pip/turn costly). The idea of basing a whole school around supporting their own bots is bad enough, but it's rubbing salt in the wound when those bots aren't even worth the use.
I get the idea of the minion school. It's just not a good idea past Arc 1 and it can't be. If Myth or any school got minions strong enough to help with bosses those minions would have to be No PvP for sure. Myth needs an identity that is strong enough to always be good.
Healing is always good Drains are always good Big Damage is always good Ally Buffs and Debuffs are always good
Minions are not always good. In fact they're mostly terrible and they always will be. And that's not fair.
Being the school of minions is like being the school of watching an unintelligent bot play your game for you slowly. Does that sound fun ?
The reason why I call Myth flawed by design is because minions are flawed by design. There are just too many factors holding minions back (spell card rng, bad stats, very pip/turn costly). The idea of basing a whole school around supporting their own bots is bad enough, but it's rubbing salt in the wound when those bots aren't even worth the use.
I get the idea of the minion school. It's just not a good idea past Arc 1 and it can't be. If Myth or any school got minions strong enough to help with bosses those minions would have to be No PvP for sure. Myth needs an identity that is strong enough to always be good.
Healing is always good Drains are always good Big Damage is always good Ally Buffs and Debuffs are always good
Minions are not always good. In fact they're mostly terrible and they always will be. And that's not fair.
Being the school of minions is like being the school of watching an unintelligent bot play your game for you slowly. Does that sound fun ?
Countering this change idea,
Myth hasn't BEEN a minion school since arc 1 and wintertusk, Talos is the last myth exclusive minion spell, all schools learn their last minion at 75 unless you count witch's house call, which is heavily damage focused
Another fact is that KI acknowledges the weakness of minions and has been implementing changes in the test realm, making the AI much more refined, giving the minions newer spells and overall making them much more viable at higher levels. I think the new myth spell coming out to make a taunting minion is also a fantastic addition for myth.
It can be unfair that myth gains an identity for one arc and loses it for the rest of the game, but in the endgame, myth is a very viable school both PvP and PvE wise, with spells like Mystic Colossus (pierce then AoE), Tatzlewurm (essemtially a beguile that enemies aren't immune to), Shift (dealing with DoTs), Earthquake (supporting by removing a lot of shields/blades), Medusa (definitely PvP, but 2 turn stun is op), shatter (obviously), and King Artorious (pierce AND DoT), myth basically has an answer to many hinderances and can have an answer to much more situations that other schools would struggle at. Honestly, in the endgame, Myth's big weakness is having the wrong hand of cards at the wrong time (at least in long fights).
If I were to make a change to help make myth more supportive, I would turn earthquake into a single hit (since it really isn't worth over using humongofrog in 95% of situations) that does more damage but keeps the utility (so you can choose who loses what and not accidentally take off all the traps your team has spent the last 3 turns stacking!)
Sure, in team scenarios, myth isn't as powerful as fire or storm, but in scenarios where the enemy can cast hinderances such as shields (which is becoming more and more common as the worlds get more difficult), myth becomes a more ideal choice for getting around them. I think myth is in a perfectly fine spot right now, and as the worlds go on, they'll become even better from the more refined AI.
In summary: Myth isn't really the minion school anymore, It's a school that deals with many hinderances and situations but suffers at needing specific cards at certain times, which is becoming more and more important as newer worlds have enemies with more refined AI that cause said hinderances, but myth's minions are certainly being improved over time in the test realm and KI is well aware of myth's minion issues.
Myth should stay a minion school, but needs reliable minions that can deal damage, heal, de/buff, and actually not die in 2 hits. They should be as strong or a bit weaker than the average wizard at that level.
Death on the other hand, needs a single minion that grows in power along with the necromancer as the wizard gains more affinity with death and the undead, to the point they can practically fight for you with a little support.
