On several occasions, I have suggested that I think gear stats for resistance should apply to absorbs (spirit armor, ice armor, and frozen armor). Another player suggested that they weren't applied because they were cast "outside" me alluding to them being outside of the sphere of my gear resistance. However, my pet is "outside" me and his stats are figured additively like I was wearing him, not like he is an additional shield. That means that values and damage aren't consistently calculated through their proximity to the wizard. Therefore, I don't see this as a valid reason not to apply gear resistance stats when figuring damage against absorbs. I'm interested in other opinions on the matter.
I don't have a strong opinion on this but it seems to me that Absorb should not include your gear stats. Absorb is not the same as health and therefore it is not implied that it should be treated the same way as health for calculations. One of the unique uses of Absorb is that (some spells) can be cast on other players. (So would it take on the gear stats of the caster or the person it is cast on - idk, just saying) I also think Absorb would be too powerful (in some situations) if it included defense stats from your gear.
I don't have a strong opinion on this but it seems to me that Absorb should not include your gear stats. Absorb is not the same as health and therefore it is not implied that it should be treated the same way as health for calculations. One of the unique uses of Absorb is that (some spells) can be cast on other players. (So would it take on the gear stats of the caster or the person it is cast on - idk, just saying) I also think Absorb would be too powerful (in some situations) if it included defense stats from your gear.
That is an interesting perspective. I'll have to mull it over a bit, but my initial reaction is that healing can apply to other people and in addition to it being more per pip than any absorb, gear stats will always apply to the benefit it provides. Of course, it is limited by your maximum health but it also can't be removed for 0 pips (pierce) or in a variety of other ways. Therefore, in a strategic sense, it only ever makes sense to use an absorb on someone/something that is in danger of being one-hit-killed (such as a minion), particularly because you can't stack an absorb with other absorbs... well, at least you didn't used to be able to. I might have to try that out here soon...
As to the stats use, it would use the stats of the person that it is on since it is a ward just like shields are. Here's what really doesn't sit right with me... These are pip investment spells (and in the case of ice school absorbs, potentially VERY large pip investments) but there is absolutely no way whatsoever of boosting them. There is no charm or gear that can increase their efficacy. However, when it comes to healing (again, an already greater base per pip investment) there is plenty of gear that can increase the benefit as well as several charms (well, two, but a variety of amulets and treasure card versions of both) that can boost that healing.
At any rate, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to respond. I really want to think this thing through and I'm interested in all the feedback I get.
I also think Absorb would be too powerful (in some situations) if it included defense stats from your gear.
I think hp1055cm is right. If I'm dueling someone and they have Spirit Armor on, I know it absorbs 400 or 500 damage. If it included gear resists, there is no telling how much it could absorb then. A level 18 Life Wizard could theoratically spam that spell on a Legendary and provide considerable shielding to them for very little cost.
I'll have to mull it over a bit, but my initial reaction is that healing can apply to other people and in addition to it being more per pip than any absorb, gear stats will always apply to the benefit it provides. Of course, it is limited by your maximum health but it also can't be removed for 0 pips (pierce) or in a variety of other ways.
True, it can't be removed for zero pips, but healing can be removed with life dispell, heal over time can be removed with Triage and healing over all can suffer tremendously if Doom and Gloom or Infection is up. I know, not as easy to do or the same as your example, but in the right situations healing can suffer too.
But your right, healing will scale WITH the game, but Absorbs are static and have to be upgraded eventually (like Frozen Armor).
True, it can't be removed for zero pips, but healing can be removed with life dispell, heal over time can be removed with Triage and healing over all can suffer tremendously if Doom and Gloom or Infection is up. I know, not as easy to do or the same as your example, but in the right situations healing can suffer too.
I think the point that you unintentionally made is that the only way to actually completely (100%) mitigate healing is to spend pips on a dispel. On the other hand, absorbs can be mitigated for 0 pips with pierce, automatically by a pet with pierce train, stolen with steal ward, completely bypassed by health steal spells, dispelled in the same way as heals, or removed with shatter or earthquake. Absorbs are not shields, they cost real pips to cast. The best comparison for the benefit they provide is to healing spells and in that comparison they are completely outclassed.
Let's consider an ice wizard with high resist. With the right pet, the maximum amount is very close to 60%, but lets round up and call it 60%. With the proper gear, a 4 pip satyr will heal for 1706 which is 426.5 per pip and this assumes that there is no guiding light or additional healing boost beyond the athame and ring. When considering resist at 60%, it would take 4265 points of damage to undo that 4 pip heal which brings the benefit up to 1066.25 per pip because once the wizard has healed, there is no way to remove the benefit without dealing the necessary damage. That heal can be reduced with infection or doom & gloom (for a cost of pips) but it can only be completely mitigated with a dispel. I might even be inclined to argue that its very difficult to mitigate the heal even with a dispel due to the cast rate of spritely and the use of the lifeforce wand.
By contrast, the best per pip benefit an absorb can provide is a frozen armor treasure card at 185 (or 462.5 if we are ever able to consider a 60% boost). It is a static and very passive ward for which you have plenty of time to completely mitigate through any of the methods previously mentioned. Because of all this, I don't believe that there is any way it would make anyone over powered. It would simply make things more complicated and provide alternate strategies. You might even see people starting to cast absorbs again.
kingurz wrote:
But your right, healing will scale WITH the game, but Absorbs are static and have to be upgraded eventually (like Frozen Armor).
That is exactly right. My initial point in this thread was that if pet talents apply like the wizard is wearing the pet, then I feel that your resistance should apply to absorbs since they are both "outside" the wizard. However, I can see that the issue for most wizards will be whether or not it makes wizards over powered. I feel that I have demonstrated that it does not. However, I'm interested in more debate on either topic.
*** Edit ***
I neglected to mention the fact that absorbs cannot critical but that heals can.
i dont think they should because ice would be a monster in pvp. they train up to absorb in life, then train in storm or death, and you cant beat them. i dont think that KI should put this in the game
i dont think they should because ice would be a monster in pvp. they train up to absorb in life, then train in storm or death, and you cant beat them. i dont think that KI should put this in the game
devin ravenmask, level 41 myth 8) 8)
It doesn't sound like you are aware that ice has two absorb spells of their own, one of which is stronger per pip than spirit armor. Please see my other post for a discussion of absorbs vs. healing. After you read that, I would be interested to know if you still feel this way and if so, I would be interested in the why. If there is going to be a real balance issue, I would be more concerned about storm since they can now attain over 40% global resist with the proper pet and gear and this could afford them a way to outlast many attacks while building for one hit kills.
It only makes sense. I think Ki should do things to encourage ice wizards to use absorbs because flaws like this no one uses them lol. And then when we get an absorb spell people are discouraged. Correct me if i'm wrong but they don't even count shields ahead of the absorb, just take the shields and don't count it lol.
well, the spirit armor is, as i think of it, a temporary health enhancement (with exceptions of drain spells). whether you use a pixie when you're damaged or start off with spirit armor, it adds to you're current health temporarily, because if someone uses a 400 hit spell, they'd take out that health (from spirit armor or pixie) anyways, and just to point out, spirit armor and pixie absorbs/ heals 400, and pixie is 2 pips and spirit armor is 3 to cast. With the extra pip in mind, absorb should include the resist stats of the character it is cast on. Spirit armor is very similar to pixie, only with drains and pips as exceptions. The character would resist plain damage spells if the spell he/she used prior to the attack were a pixie (its more worth your pips using pixie rather than absorb btw, unless your health is at full). The resist is applied to absorbs already, and it wouldn't make the enemy too much harder to beat; it was as if the enemy used pixie; get what I'm saying?
are you 100% certain that resists aren't applied to absorbs? I noticed that they ARE applied already, and since spirit armor and pixie add, in one way or another, 400 health (again, with exceptions), the enemy's resist would apply either way, and i don't see why anyone would say, "Oh, using spirit armor with resist applied would make it a lot harder to take down, but using pixie with resist applied would be easier to cope with." (yes, I'm saying it as if the enemy were to use spirit armor) adding to my previous post, i do understand that if the enemy hasn't taken at least 400 damage yet and then has spirit armor cast on themself, it would be like it raised the health ceiling, for example, a golem with 65/400 remaining health. what if he cast a spirit armor on himself, he'd then "have" 465 health... i see how it can complicate things, but it's not that hard, even considering the fact that enemies only start to heal or use spirit armor when the wizard becomes a high enough level to be able to deal with them. Even then, those spells i've encountered so far are sprite and link at lvl 37, not at mooshu yet.
are you 100% certain that resists aren't applied to absorbs?
Yes, I am 100% certain. I've done more tests in a controlled practice arena environment than I can count. Your gear resistance has absolutely no bearing on absorbs.
draco11121314 wrote:
I noticed that they ARE applied already, and since spirit armor and pixie add, in one way or another, 400 health (again, with exceptions), the enemy's resist would apply either way, and i don't see why anyone would say, "Oh, using spirit armor with resist applied would make it a lot harder to take down, but using pixie with resist applied would be easier to cope with." (yes, I'm saying it as if the enemy were to use spirit armor)
Most enemies only have one kind of resistance, that being to their own school. Take for instance a number of ice bosses. They often have as much as 80% resist to ice damage. A 400 point pixie against one of those bosses would require you to deal 2000 points of ice damage to remove the benefit unless you use a prism to alter the damage. A spirit armor, on the other hand, will take 400 points of damage to remove, period.
draco11121314 wrote:
adding to my previous post, i do understand that if the enemy hasn't taken at least 400 damage yet and then has spirit armor cast on themself, it would be like it raised the health ceiling, for example, a golem with 65/400 remaining health. what if he cast a spirit armor on himself, he'd then "have" 465 health... i see how it can complicate things, but it's not that hard, even considering the fact that enemies only start to heal or use spirit armor when the wizard becomes a high enough level to be able to deal with them. Even then, those spells i've encountered so far are sprite and link at lvl 37, not at mooshu yet.
Absorbs are rarely if ever used by monsters once you leave mooshu. There are 3 absorb spells in the game, namely spirit armor, ice armor, and now frozen armor (as of wintertusk). The first is a life spell of a fixed amount (400 for 3 pips or 500 for treasure card version) while the latter two are rank X ice spells with the first being 125 points per pip and the second being 175. There are now a couple of ways in addition to crowns gear to get global resistance and these spells have bigger implications for those wizards than for enemies. Please review an earlier post in this thread for a discussion of the differences and implications of healing vs. using an absorb.
are you 100% certain that resists aren't applied to absorbs? I noticed that they ARE applied already, and since spirit armor and pixie add, in one way or another, 400 health (again, with exceptions), the enemy's resist would apply either way, and i don't see why anyone would say, "Oh, using spirit armor with resist applied would make it a lot harder to take down, but using pixie with resist applied would be easier to cope with."
But that's the point. Both spells offer 400 points of protection, however, a Pixie, dependant upon gear, can scale up towards 900 points of protection. Spirit Armor will ONLY offer 400 points of protection ever, no matter what gear you have on. The request is that absorbs are given the same courtesy as heals.
Even if that request was granted, they would still be two seperate spells. You wouldn't cast a Pixie with full Health! Spirit Armor would still be cast whenever. Except now, Spirit Armor may actually have a chance of still being valid at levels beyond Mooshu where enemies routinely dish out over 400 damage.
I've always thought that resists were applied, because the words resist would appear above my character were to have spirit armor on. But I see I need to pay closer attention and test for myself once I am able to get back on the game (I've had technical issues and cant log into W101). But whatever are my results, I think that resists should apply to absorbs.
I've always thought that resists were applied, because the words resist would appear above my character were to have spirit armor on. But I see I need to pay closer attention and test for myself once I am able to get back on the game (I've had technical issues and cant log into W101). But whatever are my results, I think that resists should apply to absorbs.
You know... its possible that it does say resist visually. My experiments have always been about the math, however, since there have been a variety of bugs over the time I've been playing that say one thing but don't actually do what they say... prisms on DoT spells for instance (these work correctly as of wintertusk, its just an example) used to visually indicate that it was converting the damage but the math showed that to not be the case.
I've always thought that resists were applied, because the words resist would appear above my character were to have spirit armor on. But I see I need to pay closer attention and test for myself once I am able to get back on the game (I've had technical issues and cant log into W101). But whatever are my results, I think that resists should apply to absorbs.
You know... its possible that it does say resist visually. My experiments have always been about the math, however, since there have been a variety of bugs over the time I've been playing that say one thing but don't actually do what they say... prisms on DoT spells for instance (these work correctly as of wintertusk, its just an example) used to visually indicate that it was converting the damage but the math showed that to not be the case.
I just tried that for myself and your right. Wow who knew the first time i would use an out of class trigonometry equation would be in a video game lol.
I've always thought that resists were applied, because the words resist would appear above my character were to have spirit armor on. But I see I need to pay closer attention and test for myself once I am able to get back on the game (I've had technical issues and cant log into W101). But whatever are my results, I think that resists should apply to absorbs.
You know... its possible that it does say resist visually.
I've thought about that while I was writing the first sentence in my last post.
i dont think they should because ice would be a monster in pvp. they train up to absorb in life, then train in storm or death, and you cant beat them. i dont think that KI should put this in the game
devin ravenmask, level 41 myth 8) 8)
It doesn't sound like you are aware that ice has two absorb spells of their own, one of which is stronger per pip than spirit armor. Please see my other post for a discussion of absorbs vs. healing. After you read that, I would be interested to know if you still feel this way and if so, I would be interested in the why. If there is going to be a real balance issue, I would be more concerned about storm since they can now attain over 40% global resist with the proper pet and gear and this could afford them a way to outlast many attacks while building for one hit kills.
ok, i first want to say, compare my response to most others. the others are full of facts. i like to state the obvious while waiting for wiz101 to load. and also, i forgot that ice had their own absorbs. i would also like to say that i have ONE person over level 20. he is level 41 :( my storm is level 14 and my death is level 15. i don't know much about the new resists, but storm sounds like it's the new, better ice. they have 40% global resists, and can hit very,very hard. oh, and one last thing. i would read your absorbs vs. healing post if i could find it. there is nothing when i search it
devin raven mask, level 41 myth morgrim jade thorn, level 15 death can't wait for scarecrow, and don't hound me, i know it's a long way away :( :( :(
ok, i first want to say, compare my response to most others. the others are full of facts. i like to state the obvious while waiting for wiz101 to load. and also, i forgot that ice had their own absorbs. i would also like to say that i have ONE person over level 20. he is level 41 :( my storm is level 14 and my death is level 15. i don't know much about the new resists, but storm sounds like it's the new, better ice. they have 40% global resists, and can hit very,very hard. oh, and one last thing. i would read your absorbs vs. healing post if i could find it. there is nothing when i search it
devin raven mask, level 41 myth morgrim jade thorn, level 15 death can't wait for scarecrow, and don't hound me, i know it's a long way away :( :( :(
That's not a problem. I hope you didn't mistake the tone of my response as that of someone trying to be confrontational. I'm always interested in feedback and I do enjoy healthy debate. The post I'm referring to is here in this thread; you should be able to scroll back up to it. Its a reply from me to kingurz and it starts with "I think the point that you unintentionally made is that the only way to actually completely (100%) mitigate healing is to spend pips on a dispel". As to storm, truly, I fervently believe that things are mathematically pretty equal. While storm can get high global resist, so can everyone else now (with the waterworks gear). If anything I've posted doesn't make sense, or you have questions, just let me know.
