I'm very curious. Does anyone know of a scenario where it makes sense to use either unstoppable or extraordinary over gargantuan or colossal? In every scenario I have run against a high resist target, colossal or gargantuan together with infallible always does more damage than using either unstoppable or extraordinary. As far as I can tell, they are still only useful when fighting in cheating dungeons that spam "mantles" of accuracy reduction. Am I missing something?
I'm very curious. Does anyone know of a scenario where it makes sense to use either unstoppable or extraordinary over gargantuan or colossal? In every scenario I have run against a high resist target, colossal or gargantuan together with infallible always does more damage than using either unstoppable or extraordinary. As far as I can tell, they are still only useful when fighting in cheating dungeons that spam "mantles" of accuracy reduction. Am I missing something?
I've had "some" success in using the Pierce combination (gear/enchantment/aura) to deal decent damage with DoTs against same school enemies. This is mostly the spells and not the gear, since the gear's 1-3% additions are comical. It is also a little bit quicker when dealing with multiple enemies since I don't have to put a convert on each one.
But mostly, I use them for the main purpose you've already identified. Dealing with Luska like a boss.
I'm very curious. Does anyone know of a scenario where it makes sense to use either unstoppable or extraordinary over gargantuan or colossal? In every scenario I have run against a high resist target, colossal or gargantuan together with infallible always does more damage than using either unstoppable or extraordinary. As far as I can tell, they are still only useful when fighting in cheating dungeons that spam "mantles" of accuracy reduction. Am I missing something?
you added infallible to your equation. with extraordinary it would be 30% pierce. example. you have one power pip. you use judge with colossal on an enemy with 80% resist. 100+275 times power pip (2) is 750-80% is 150. with infallible resist becomes 65% is 262.5. with extraordinary it makes the 80% resist (i forgot if it is 15% or 25) either 65% or 55% makeing the damage for a one power pip judge 70 or 180 with infallible it makes the resist either 50% or 40% making the damage 100 or 120. so yes it is better but if you have infallible it changes everything drasticly.
forgot to mention if you have bad gear the accuracy is permanent of the spell so storm lord wont fizzle 100% and still go through 30 resist and the judgement scenario was bad but it is the most recent i have encountered.
Right. The intent was to compare an attack with infallible and colossal vs. an attack with infallible and extraordinary.
hanable33 wrote:
with extraordinary it would be 30% pierce. example. you have one power pip. you use judge with colossal on an enemy with 80% resist. 100+275 times power pip (2) is 750-80% is 150. with infallible resist becomes 65% is 262.5. with extraordinary it makes the 80% resist (i forgot if it is 15% or 25) either 65% or 55% makeing the damage for a one power pip judge 70 or 180 with infallible it makes the resist either 50% or 40% making the damage 100 or 120. so yes it is better but if you have infallible it changes everything drasticly.
You're really confusing me there. I don't know where the 750-80% came from and I'm having a hard time following you. The real meat of the issue I was trying to get at was (and we'll use your 1 power pip judge for the example with my balance damage boost of 68%) this:
infallible + colossal + 1 powerpip judge against 80% balance resist is:
1.68 x (.2 + .15) x 475 = 276 damage
vs.
infallible + extraordinary + 1 powerpip judge against 80% balance resist is:
1.68 x (.2 + .3) x 200 = 168 damage
I was wondering if there is ever a scenario where it makes more sense to use extraordinary for the additional pierce. I actually think I just answered my own question. There is a law of diminishing returns when colossal is applied to base damage... for instance this:
infallible + colossal + 5 powerpip judge against 80% balance resist is:
1.68 x (.2 + .15) x 1275 = 740 damage
vs.
infallible + extraordinary + 1 powerpip judge against 80% balance resist is:
1.68 x (.2 + .3) x 1000 = 840 damage
Interesting... I wonder what the break even point is.
Ok. So my simultaneous algebraic equation skills were a bit rusty, but I finally got it. Here is the formula for evaluating when it becomes advantageous to use sun accuracy spells like extraordinary (or treasure unstoppable) over sun damage spells like colossal while simultaneously using another source of pierce such as TC infallible:
x = ((1 + a)z - zy) / v
where "x" is the damage needed to achieve a break even point, "a" is the pierce amount of the simultaneous pierce source (in this case a star spell), "z" is the amount of the sun spell damage boost, "y" is the resistance amount being pierced, and "v" is the difference between the constant pierce amount and the amount achieved using a sun accuracy spell instead of a sun damage spell. Let's plug in some values and make sense here. Treasure card Infallible has a pierce value of 20% or .2("a"), Colossal is 275("z"), tower shield for instance is 50% or .5("y"), and extraordinary (or TC unstoppable) pierce amount is 15% or .15("v"). Plugging in those values would work out to:
x = ((1.2 x 275) - (275 x .5) / .15
simplifying to:
x = (330 - 137.5) / .15
and finally to:
x = 1284 (rounded up to the next whole number)
Any spell whose base damage would be 1284 or higher (against no resistance) would benefit more from extraordinary than colossal. Don't forget that you have gear boosts as well as blades to factor, so for instance a 4 power pip judgement with a 68% balance gear boost and a single balance blade would be approximately 1680 against an unshielded opponent and would therefore benefit more from extraordinary than from colossal when there is 50% or more resistance protecting the enemy. Also, don't forget to factor in gear pierce benefits if you have them. Finally, the most important thing to take away is that the higher the resistance, the lower the base damage needs to be to benefit more from extraordinary than from colossal, all other things being equal. To demonstrate, we'll factor one more time against 70% resistance:
x = ((1.2 x 275) - (275 x .7) / .15
simplifying to:
x = (330 - 192.5) / .15
and finally to:
x = 917 (rounded up to the next whole number)
I hope this helps the community. I found it to be a fun and interesting exercise. :-D
The formula is to help you determine when you should use a sun pierce spell (such as extraordinary) vs. as sun damage spell (such as colossal). It may seem a little more complicated than necessary, but I worked it out so that you can account for several factors. The two real sources of pierce right now (other than potentially gear) are the star spell infallible and the sun spells extraordinary and unstoppable. If you want to figure out when it makes sense to use both infallible and extraordinary vs. infallible and colossal, you can do this:
a = infallible ( 15% pierce for regular spell ) z = colossal ( +275 damage ) y = tower shield ( 50% ) v = extraordinary ( 15% pierce )
x = (( 1.15 x 275 ) - ( 275 x .5 )) / .15 x = ( 316.25 - 137.5 ) / .15 x = 178.75 / .15 x = 1192 ( round to the next whole number )
So in this case, against a tower shield, it would make more sense to use infallible and extraordinary when you would normally be doing 1192 or more base damage. Take the spell judgement, for instance, with a balance who has a gear damage boost of 1.68... at 6 power pips (an effective damage of 1200) or higher, it would deal more damage to modify the spell with extraordinary and use a treasure infallible than to modify the spell with colossal and use an infallible. For a proof on that:
1.68 x ( .5 + .15 + .15 = .8 ) x 1200 = 1613 damage 1.68 x ( .5 + .15 = .65 ) x ( 1200+275 = 1475 ) = 1610 damage
The formula is to help you determine when you should use a sun pierce spell (such as extraordinary) vs. as sun damage spell (such as colossal). It may seem a little more complicated than necessary, but I worked it out so that you can account for several factors. The two real sources of pierce right now (other than potentially gear) are the star spell infallible and the sun spells extraordinary and unstoppable. If you want to figure out when it makes sense to use both infallible and extraordinary vs. infallible and colossal, you can do this:
a = infallible ( 15% pierce for regular spell ) z = colossal ( +275 damage ) y = tower shield ( 50% ) v = extraordinary ( 15% pierce )
x = (( 1.15 x 275 ) - ( 275 x .5 )) / .15 x = ( 316.25 - 137.5 ) / .15 x = 178.75 / .15 x = 1192 ( round to the next whole number )
So in this case, against a tower shield, it would make more sense to use infallible and extraordinary when you would normally be doing 1192 or more base damage. Take the spell judgement, for instance, with a balance who has a gear damage boost of 1.68... at 6 power pips (an effective damage of 1200) or higher, it would deal more damage to modify the spell with extraordinary and use a treasure infallible than to modify the spell with colossal and use an infallible. For a proof on that:
1.68 x ( .5 + .15 + .15 = .8 ) x 1200 = 1613 damage 1.68 x ( .5 + .15 = .65 ) x ( 1200+275 = 1475 ) = 1610 damage
Does that make more sense?
Hey Gtarhannon, don't confuse them, it is bad enough as it is!
I think I pretty much, had that covered in my post when this was first introduced, however, I did not bore people with the mathematical equations.
However, you are quite correct, in assuming that too much accuracy is going to waste and not worth it, except when fighting accuracy reducing bosses.
