Ok, hold on. Before I begin, I will say I'm a storm wizard, and while i would love to dominate without question, it wouldn't be right. First, storm is weak? I can hit over 1500 damage without anything helping me, besides my storm boost, using leviathan, which is supposed to do around 1000 damage. I resist other storms 78% and I have shields for everything else. I can heal with satyr because I trained in life. I can get through a -70% shield while still doing at least the damage my spell intended without a blade or trap, and tower shields are nothing. My critical is pretty good, I critical about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time. I am not even level 60 yet, and I'm only wearing one thing that is level 58 or above. I don't win all the time, but come against me or my storm friends without a stratagy(as so many people do) and you better get lucky. You think storm is weak? You should see the faces of the other storms I fight when thier leviathan is reduced to 300 damage without a shield. Second, we don't need much help. If every storm my level would do what I did instead of just using insane bolt every single turn storm probably wouldn't be called such a bad school. I have seen the gear in the higher levels, I however don't know what it is like using it. I don't feel like giving up my damage for a slight chance at slipping past shields i can power through on my own. I guess I'll see how I do in Zafaria, but it you ask me, we're fine. I'm mad about wild bolt, I never spammed it, but I'm not going to demand something to make up for it. I didn't expirience Sirens before it was changed, but from what i hear it sounds pretty cool. To some who may think storm has to be changed for the worse just because it does a little more damage, we'll trade you damage for your extra thousand health. But from what I have seen, people wouldn't want to give up thier advantage to get our advantage to add to it. I would love to one hit an ice because they got thier health lowered in exchange for a little more power, but I can't. Maybe we should be happy KI even made this game at all with people yelling at them and saying they messed up. Without KI, there would be nothing to make a mistake on.
Amber Stormsong level 58 Diviner (with a wizard in every school, I know what it is like to beat or lose against a storm too)
I will give you the fact that fire could use an AoE that is not a DoT spell. However, I don't quite see your point on how storm has it easier than Fire, when fire has no problems with shields at all. Fire has many ways to remove shields and can heal while attacking. Plus Fire has more health than storm, more critical block than storm, almost as good of critical, at 180, have even seen 210 for fire.
You don't see Fire complaining, because they have strong single attacks and DoT attacks. They have choices, whereas storm does not have the same choices.
Now, as for Gtarhannon, Storm's Siren spell used to have 40 more damage and give 2 decrease accuracy charms, which has been reduced. So, after Storm casts Sirens, pets will usually eat those decrease in accuracy charms up casting spritely, making them null and void! And a whole 1 loss of blade! Totally worth just casting storm lord, which stuns, enchanted with Colossal and then a Tempest enchanted with Colossal, which will do a lot more damage!
1/2 our spells are DoTs (pretty sure I counted right), against an ice, our artillery is cut in half, and some of the spells that were single hit, who uses in pvp (not sure anyone uses immolate, not sure about firecat and sunbird)
Are we still talking about against ice here? Some people here seem to be wavering schools. Yes, I realize that fire, against most other schools, if used correctly, dominates others, but against ice, you need to realize, it does have it a bit harder than storm. You guys can blade heavily, your gargantuan boosts, plus stacked blades, probably can make a fair sized dent in ices, not saying fires cant, just saying its harder, because with the WW gear, we have about 60 boost, while you have 80.
@jojowild23 I usually refer to the backheavy shield shredding DoTs to "angle type", because, snow angle is one of those
I never said fire had the shortest in in ALL of 1v1, I was saying only against ice (compared to storm, thats the school that darthjt brought up, so thats the school I used).
@archmage987 That is also one of the solutions I had brought up in another thread about storm DoTs, to give it to them as a utility, and yes, I believe that can work. As I said, I was talking fire vs ice, everything else, I know, potential domination.
Aside from all that, what really makes me sad, is that I saw an ice, with an adult defender pig, can anyone guess the two talents? Anyone? Well, it was none other than fire and storm proof...
@cameron225, this isn't a discussion about damage, storm dealing too much or lack of it in general. This is a thread under PvP. Encounters in Celestia or Zafaria are not running upwards of 50% universal resistance. Not all monsters have a block rating of the bosses in Zafaria making the chance of critical 1 in 10. Monster are not running the damage increase that players are. Monsters in upper dungeons do not even bother to shield anymore unless they are ice type in which case you can count on them casting one or two tower shields until their total pip values are in the 4 to 6 range. Nor do they have any intelligence, make glaring mistakes that we take advantage of making the battles easier. They don't and can't see that balance is one pip away from killing them with a judgment so they throw up a tower shield. The storm based boss continues to brainlessly plug away into storm shields while there is a conversion on them and storm mage is near the thresh hold of a Leviathan. I have never spammed wild bolt, I have used it maybe twice. Once for myself and once to demonstrate for my friend just how lack luster it is. Before the change I never used it. I knew what a fizzle looked like and didn't need anther example. :-P If the storm mages you see in the arena are spamming wild bolt. Call it for what it is, poor tactics and looking for that lucky shot. If the storms you see in the arena are not packing at least a couple of conversion, then I call it poor planning.
@slammer111 Everyone should have a hard time vs ice, else ice is doing something wrong imo. They have all the tools to drag the match out till you make a critical mistake then hammer it home. Now I don't have a school per say. I have a storm and three others transcended so I don't consider myself as being to anyone faction. Alas one of them isn't a fire so the rest of this may be off. I link to eat shields and keep a steady pressure on the opponent as my health stays high, casting birds and other low pips spells to further chip away at their health. Then when the timing is right is finish it with a phoenix. This may sound like a long drawn out affair but it goes fairly fast as most all of my hit are unshielded. Fire has not historically won by playing like storm. Storm is looking for the one hit kill, fire just needs to keep them dominated. Since fire DOESN'T need a one hit kill to win, it also doesn't need an 80% boost like storm does. Storm has to open the way and keep it open long enough to score. Fire, with it's DoTs, can open the way and strike at its leisure.
kingurz wrote:
I stand corrected. I had forgotten this spelled was changed to act more like the Spectral Blast and Hydra for Balance. I didn't use this spell much beyond the Wintertusk introduction, because of the side effects while soloing.
Although, personally, I believe it shouldn't be that way, since Storm is not Balance and should not have mastery of more than one school without the use of a Mastery Amulet.
Strange definition for mastery. Anything that will kill me, not might but will, if my luck runs out doesn't fit my definition of mastery :-)
gtarhannon wrote:
joujou11cool wrote:
Storm's nerfing: Wild Bolt Sirens Resist (On Ww gear)
I'll give you wild bolt. Sirens being changed in test realm hardly constitutes nerfing. I also fail to see how giving storm global resist with large damage boosts on the waterworks gear is nerfing.
Siren was a nerf in that if you extrapolated out the standard increase of damage from level to level Siren should have been higher. The other effect of getting hit by Siren are certainly debatable. I would feel better about the loss of damage if it still did remove two charms, double smoke screen and really pacify all opponents.
The WW nerf was a loss of 2% damage. I make choice of bigger percents than that when figuring my gear combo, so 2% is ignorable to me. Nor would I truly call this a nerf. I also don't use WW gear set. :-P
jojowild23 wrote:
slammer111 wrote:
darthjt wrote:
Well, if it was indeed changed, I have not used insane bolt, in like forever, but that is a good thing, since everything else is being nerfed about storm and since nobody seems to want storm to have a DoT spell.
And since Ice is getting incredible resistance to storm, for this spell to be moon damage and gets storms boosts, that levels the playing field some.
I have said this before, at this level, based on how much damage DoTs usually do, if storm gets a DoT, the damage will be HUGE, cost a lot of pips, and to me, just be there for show (I am a fire), unless you get an angle type DoT, then it might be a bit better. Also, you say that storm is getting increadibly high resistance like it is the ONLY school that has it, in truth, storm has it MUCH easier than fire, because they dont have a DoT (yet...), and are able to use converts effectively. How many pyromancers have you seen going up and down the forum complaining that fire is getting nerfed because of the new gear, now compare that to storm...
What is an angle type DoT?
I think he means angel.
jojowild23 wrote:
Storm has it easier than fire are you kidding? I disagree. I think Storm currently has the short end in 1v1 PvP and they need something to compete. Just don't think DoT is the solution to everything that most people think it is.
Part of the problem with Storm is the way KI designed the WW outfit: Atomic Storm Power! basically. Plus, the fact that they can in that outfit cast Satyr with greater accuracy than a Life wizard (huh? KI? anybody home!?). Add in pet Storm accuracy...ugh.
So the real issue at stake is KI had to design Storm not to let it have very much spell versatility (DoTs, double hits, what have you) from second to compensate for their atomic capabilities while going first. Other than Ice wizards with outrageous resist, seriously, going second against a Transcended Storm wizard is like standing on a razor with artillery guns zeroed on in you: At any moment, let your guard down and/or fail to cast a shield and you could die.
Exactly! What are the number one and two schools in the area right now? Fire and Myth. What do these schools have in common? They are the two hardest schools to defend against. Fire comes out on top since they have a higher damage base. This isn't any real mystery. Storm is easily warded. Back when DS was the cap. The end as I am sure it was supposed to be, I had no problem with this. Look back if so inclined and you will not see a single post by me about how to balance storm. In my opinion all classes were properly balanced up to the point of Malistare.
Everything after that is the problem.
At this point storm SHOULD be instant death. He catches you unshielded, it is over. Is this fair? Nope. It would make Judgment look like a joke against a transcended storm mage. Do I think it acceptable that storm isn't powerful? ABSOLUTELY! But storm still needs compensation for the loss in power it SHOULD have. We need a way to deal with shields and resist. Something that SHOULD have been and was storm's bane in pre DS. High resist is no longer a strictly Ice attribute, and incoming damage for storm is no longer something he can deal with, period. A DoT to give us that unshielded moment or enough pierce to counter gear is fair.
Please don't think I am one sided in this. Ice has been nerfed. Their resist should be pushing 80% with pet and fortify. Can that be allowed for game play? Again like storm damage, no. Ice needed a supercharge spell not storm. Up ice's damage!
Fire has a mass DoT spell because it kills slowly giving the wizard on the wrong end a chance to do something and survive. KI can give Fire a massive damage spell because they can change it to a DoT for Fire. Give fire a 1 pip mass conversion trap like storm's darkwind!
Death needs a mass steal life spell. A super scarecrow WOULD be too powerful, but they have DoT spells. Other than semantics, what is the difference between link doing damage and healing fire slowly and vampire getting it all at once and giving it to death? Give death an AoE DoT drain life spell.
Life I think is as good as it gets. They have an AoE spell, and a spell you can't just quick heal from with gnomes.
Myth is just fine, stun and DoT? What they lose for the stun, which a lot of things are immune to in the upper dungeons, I feel Talos more than makes up for.
Balance. Workable, but I really can't make a suggestion that isn't unbalancing. Elemental and Spirit defuse are too costly to really use, but any cheaper and it would be too spam easy. Base availing hands heals enough to pretty much off set meteor. At the moment the only thing they could use is a spirit school equivalent to elemental blast. Right now a balance mage casts spirit blade on himself then he is announcing his intention to cast chimera. So here comes at least a weakness and probably a tower as well.
I am trying to point out that Rain of Fire is a DoT and Sirens is not, so it merely gives the appearance of being "nerfed." And by the way, Efreet vs. Leviathan is the last level we indeed have two spells where the level is even and the type of spell is even. In which case, Efreet's damage per pip: 112. Leviathan's damage per pip: 129. Your point being?
My point being that Levi gets two charms if there are two charms, let alone any charms at all. Efreet puts on a weakness. Period. There is no maybe or timing about this. Which is more valuable then? Storm has always per pip been one bracket above all other schools. Most other schools have to cast a rank three spell to equal the damage of a bats. Not so with Efreet, and Efreet has a better add on effect.
Nor is Rain of Fire sticky. In comes the initial 300 damage probably hitting a 70% shield. 90 Damage taken. Lets give the poor victim on the wrong end of this spell the benefit of doubt and say he has anther shield already in place, and it is even a fire shield. Another 80 damage. We will even say he had a shield in hand and throws that up. Second 80 damage. Alright, now, does he have a fourth shield? Probably not. So 266 damage. What makes you think that 516 damage (probably more) and one plus shields gone is of equal value to 880 damage, maybe we got a charm, and maybe the opponent wastes a turn when the spell fizzles?
jojowild23 wrote:
The entire list of effects for Leviathan and Basilisk:
Leviathan-two disarms
Basilisk-stun
your point being?
Again, which is more useful in PvP? The maybe of disarm, or the more likely stun. Granted in PvE it is the other way around since lots of things are stun immune, to the point when I cast a lord, I expect to see a stun immune message and am pleasantly surprised when I don't.
jojowild23 wrote:
Ok I'll redo my math on Chimera: 340x3=1020. Wow, that's the same as before when I calculated it! And wow for one more pip to cast the spell it still lags 10 damage points behind Leviathan.
Your point being?
My point is math. x+y+z/=a How do figure that a spell that is across three damage types therefor requiring three different shields (or at least three of the exact same tower shield) for 10 less damage isn't equal to Leviathan than can be blocked for a likely 70% . While at worst of likely to happen scenarios for balance, chimera hits two shields. Lets do some basic arithmetic. 1030 * .3 = 309 (340 * .3)+(340 * .3)+340 = 544
All the other spells aren't even comparable, being single hit. Mammoth, for one more pip, still lags a hundred and thirty (and at best! at best 130!) behind Leviathan, which is a pip cheaper. Basilisk apes Leviathan in damage (but still: for one pip more to do 120 more and spread out in damage over time). Chimera hasn't even caught up to Leviathan yet, 10 points behind for one more pip. Gnomes! and Dr. Von's Monster? 780-880 and 820, respectively. Seriously? At nine pips?
In four out of six cases the school spells haven't even caught up to Leviathan yet. And in the other two cases, they are damage over time spells.
Really? These are your proofs as to why we need a cut across the top of all schools? Please compare death's drain spells against all spells of equal pips again. Please compare damage output per pip for life historically. Please compare damage per pip of storm vs the next most damaging school (fire) again. Please reread the entire list of effect of basilisk and leviathan again. Please redo your math on chimera.
No you misread. These are my proofs on why it is a sticky wicket to look at Sirens as being nerfed through the lens of a comparison to all the other level 78 spells.
I am not trying to compare Death against all spells of equal pips. I am not trying to compare the history of Life's damage per pip.
I am trying to point out that Rain of Fire is a DoT and Sirens is not, so it merely gives the appearance of being "nerfed." And by the way, Efreet vs. Leviathan is the last level we indeed have two spells where the level is even and the type of spell is even. In which case, Efreet's damage per pip: 112. Leviathan's damage per pip: 129. Your point being?
The entire list of effects for Leviathan and Basilisk:
Leviathan-two disarms
Basilisk-stun
your point being?
Ok I'll redo my math on Chimera: 340x3=1020. Wow, that's the same as before when I calculated it! And wow for one more pip to cast the spell it still lags 10 damage points behind Leviathan.
Ok, hold on. Before I begin, I will say I'm a storm wizard, and while i would love to dominate without question, it wouldn't be right. First, storm is weak? I can hit over 1500 damage without anything helping me, besides my storm boost, using leviathan, which is supposed to do around 1000 damage. I resist other storms 78% and I have shields for everything else. I can heal with satyr because I trained in life. I can get through a -70% shield while still doing at least the damage my spell intended without a blade or trap, and tower shields are nothing. My critical is pretty good, I critical about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time. I am not even level 60 yet, and I'm only wearing one thing that is level 58 or above. I don't win all the time, but come against me or my storm friends without a stratagy(as so many people do) and you better get lucky. You think storm is weak? You should see the faces of the other storms I fight when thier leviathan is reduced to 300 damage without a shield. Second, we don't need much help. If every storm my level would do what I did instead of just using insane bolt every single turn storm probably wouldn't be called such a bad school. I have seen the gear in the higher levels, I however don't know what it is like using it. I don't feel like giving up my damage for a slight chance at slipping past shields i can power through on my own. I guess I'll see how I do in Zafaria, but it you ask me, we're fine. I'm mad about wild bolt, I never spammed it, but I'm not going to demand something to make up for it. I didn't expirience Sirens before it was changed, but from what i hear it sounds pretty cool. To some who may think storm has to be changed for the worse just because it does a little more damage, we'll trade you damage for your extra thousand health. But from what I have seen, people wouldn't want to give up thier advantage to get our advantage to add to it. I would love to one hit an ice because they got thier health lowered in exchange for a little more power, but I can't. Maybe we should be happy KI even made this game at all with people yelling at them and saying they messed up. Without KI, there would be nothing to make a mistake on.
Amber Stormsong level 58 Diviner (with a wizard in every school, I know what it is like to beat or lose against a storm too)
You are storm and have 78% storm resist, meaning, you have 0% global resist, you critical block is not very high, and you probably only have around 2200 health, if that.
Now, Ice on the other hand, can have with the new crafted gear from Zafaria, 4300 to 4500 health, 70% storm resist & 70% fire resist, while still having 49% resistance to all other schools. And, while doing this, they still have 43% damage boost on Ice and 111 critical block points, with 150 critical points!
You say it is nice when other storms use Leviathan on you, because you resist storm so much, but on the same token, you don't have 4500 health. You also can face any other school and have no resistance to that other school. You are also giving up accuracy!
1/2 our spells are DoTs (pretty sure I counted right), against an ice, our artillery is cut in half, and some of the spells that were single hit, who uses in pvp (not sure anyone uses immolate, not sure about firecat and sunbird)
Are we still talking about against ice here? Some people here seem to be wavering schools. Yes, I realize that fire, against most other schools, if used correctly, dominates others, but against ice, you need to realize, it does have it a bit harder than storm. You guys can blade heavily, your gargantuan boosts, plus stacked blades, probably can make a fair sized dent in ices, not saying fires cant, just saying its harder, because with the WW gear, we have about 60 boost, while you have 80.
@archmage987 That is also one of the solutions I had brought up in another thread about storm DoTs, to give it to them as a utility, and yes, I believe that can work. As I said, I was talking fire vs ice, everything else, I know, potential domination.
Aside from all that, what really makes me sad, is that I saw an ice, with an adult defender pig, can anyone guess the two talents? Anyone? Well, it was none other than fire and storm proof...
I understand that Fire can also have a harder time with Ice as Ice can resist Fire as much or more than storm, depending on the gear Ice chooses to use.
However, in 1v1, Fire has many DoT spells to choose from, heck hound enchanted with Colossal is a huge one! You are not limited to 1 version of this spell either. You also have many fire elfs, Link, Power Link (which both heal you at the same time) And a properly timed Efreet can give any spell a bad day!
While storm does not have as many options as fire does. Sure, storm elf is great for 1v1 pvp, where if you blade a few times, and then cast elf to remove those shields and then hit with Leviathan. Storm does have to attack fast, as it does have the least amount of health and resistance in the game. Not to mention, the least amount of critical block!
As for 2v2, 3v3, & 4v4 pvp, Fire has it so much better than storm does! Fire has Rain of Fire, which is an extremely powerful AoE DoT!
Storm has what spell as an AoE DoT? oh, yeah, that's right, they dont get one...
Now, I have also suggested, many times in the threads, that the AoE DoT spell does not have to be in fact a level 10 spell. I have suggested, that just like we got spell upgrades in Wintertusk, we get spell upgrades in a new update. I have even given ideas how this spell would work...
I am trying to point out that Rain of Fire is a DoT and Sirens is not, so it merely gives the appearance of being "nerfed." And by the way, Efreet vs. Leviathan is the last level we indeed have two spells where the level is even and the type of spell is even. In which case, Efreet's damage per pip: 112. Leviathan's damage per pip: 129. Your point being?
My point being that Levi gets two charms if there are two charms, let alone any charms at all. Efreet puts on a weakness. Period. There is no maybe or timing about this. Which is more valuable then? Storm has always per pip been one bracket above all other schools. Most other schools have to cast a rank three spell to equal the damage of a bats. Not so with Efreet, and Efreet has a better add on effect.
Nor is Rain of Fire sticky. In comes the initial 300 damage probably hitting a 70% shield. 90 Damage taken. Lets give the poor victim on the wrong end of this spell the benefit of doubt and say he has anther shield already in place, and it is even a fire shield. Another 80 damage. We will even say he had a shield in hand and throws that up. Second 80 damage. Alright, now, does he have a fourth shield? Probably not. So 266 damage. What makes you think that 516 damage (probably more) and one plus shields gone is of equal value to 880 damage, maybe we got a charm, and maybe the opponent wastes a turn when the spell fizzles?
Yeah, I agree Efreet's weakness is generally better than Leviathan's disarms. Wasn't really my point. Let's take a look at those rank 3 spells...
The median damage of Storm Shark is 405 (375-435) dpp 135 The median damage of Sunbird is 325 (295-355) dpp 108 (27 diff. in dpp)
405-325=80
Leviathan=1030 dpp 129 Efreet=895 dpp 112 (17 diff. in dpp)
1030-895=135
True, the gap between damage per pip has gotten closer but tell me again why damage per pip matters when the fixed damage has actually gotten farther apart? Oh and also since the numbers still suggest Leviathan is potentially much more lethal in terms of damage than Efreet, what is the value in Efreet's weakness if it leaves the opponent alive and able to heal and eventually wand said weakness away whereas Leviathan can come closer to effectively closing the curtain on said opponent?
And you're still missing my point in that I'm not trying to compare Sirens vs Rain of Fire through the lens of damage output. My main point is the history of the game would prove it's fairly tenuous to compare one spell that's a DoT with one that is not. Especially to use that as a launching pad to talk about spells being "nerfed" and others "powered up" which is how this conversation started, if you remember.
archmage987 wrote:
jojowild23 wrote:
The entire list of effects for Leviathan and Basilisk:
Leviathan-two disarms
Basilisk-stun
your point being?
Again, which is more useful in PvP? The maybe of disarm, or the more likely stun. Granted in PvE it is the other way around since lots of things are stun immune, to the point when I cast a lord, I expect to see a stun immune message and am pleasantly surprised when I don't.
I'll concede you this one point. I may be biased. I usually haven't had a problem getting a stun block down against Basilisk in the arena. And when I don't get one down, it hasn't made a difference, really, yet, as I'm sure it will at some point in the future. Medusa is actually a better stunner, because she's cheaper in pips and does more of it.
archmage987 wrote:
jojowild23 wrote:
Ok I'll redo my math on Chimera: 340x3=1020. Wow, that's the same as before when I calculated it! And wow for one more pip to cast the spell it still lags 10 damage points behind Leviathan.
Your point being?
My point is math. x+y+z/=a How do figure that a spell that is across three damage types therefor requiring three different shields (or at least three of the exact same tower shield) for 10 less damage isn't equal to Leviathan than can be blocked for a likely 70% . While at worst of likely to happen scenarios for balance, chimera hits two shields. Lets do some basic arithmetic. 1030 * .3 = 309 (340 * .3)+(340 * .3)+340 = 544
In that light, yes, it does more damage. It still costs one more pip to cast than Leviathan though. I guess that's just irrelevant.
I am trying to point out that Rain of Fire is a DoT and Sirens is not, so it merely gives the appearance of being "nerfed." And by the way, Efreet vs. Leviathan is the last level we indeed have two spells where the level is even and the type of spell is even. In which case, Efreet's damage per pip: 112. Leviathan's damage per pip: 129. Your point being?
My point being that Levi gets two charms if there are two charms, let alone any charms at all. Efreet puts on a weakness. Period. There is no maybe or timing about this. Which is more valuable then? Storm has always per pip been one bracket above all other schools. Most other schools have to cast a rank three spell to equal the damage of a bats. Not so with Efreet, and Efreet has a better add on effect.
Nor is Rain of Fire sticky. In comes the initial 300 damage probably hitting a 70% shield. 90 Damage taken. Lets give the poor victim on the wrong end of this spell the benefit of doubt and say he has anther shield already in place, and it is even a fire shield. Another 80 damage. We will even say he had a shield in hand and throws that up. Second 80 damage. Alright, now, does he have a fourth shield? Probably not. So 266 damage. What makes you think that 516 damage (probably more) and one plus shields gone is of equal value to 880 damage, maybe we got a charm, and maybe the opponent wastes a turn when the spell fizzles?
Yeah, I agree Efreet's weakness is generally better than Leviathan's disarms. Wasn't really my point. Let's take a look at those rank 3 spells...
The median damage of Storm Shark is 405 (375-435) dpp 135 The median damage of Sunbird is 325 (295-355) dpp 108 (27 diff. in dpp)
405-325=80
Leviathan=1030 dpp 129 Efreet=895 dpp 112 (17 diff. in dpp)
1030-895=135
True, the gap between damage per pip has gotten closer but tell me again why damage per pip matters when the fixed damage has actually gotten farther apart? Oh and also since the numbers still suggest Leviathan is potentially much more lethal in terms of damage than Efreet, what is the value in Efreet's weakness if it leaves the opponent alive and able to heal and eventually wand said weakness away whereas Leviathan can come closer to effectively closing the curtain on said opponent?
And you're still missing my point in that I'm not trying to compare Sirens vs Rain of Fire through the lens of damage output. My main point is the history of the game would prove it's fairly tenuous to compare one spell that's a DoT with one that is not. Especially to use that as a launching pad to talk about spells being "nerfed" and others "powered up" which is how this conversation started, if you remember.
You are comparing Fire, which has between 500 and 1000 more health, depending on the gear you choose, more resistance, and many spells that are DoT and AoE DoT, to Storm, who is supposed to be the strongest school in the game, with the least amount of health, resistance, and critical block!
Not to even mention how much more health Balance has to Storm and how much more resistance Balance has. Then to later on Compare Balance's Chimera Spell to Leviathan? Is this a joke?
archmage987 wrote:
jojowild23 wrote:
The entire list of effects for Leviathan and Basilisk:
Leviathan-two disarms
Basilisk-stun
your point being?
Again, which is more useful in PvP? The maybe of disarm, or the more likely stun. Granted in PvE it is the other way around since lots of things are stun immune, to the point when I cast a lord, I expect to see a stun immune message and am pleasantly surprised when I don't.
I'll concede you this one point. I may be biased. I usually haven't had a problem getting a stun block down against Basilisk in the arena. And when I don't get one down, it hasn't made a difference, really, yet, as I'm sure it will at some point in the future. Medusa is actually a better stunner, because she's cheaper in pips and does more of it.
archmage987 wrote:
jojowild23 wrote:
Ok I'll redo my math on Chimera: 340x3=1020. Wow, that's the same as before when I calculated it! And wow for one more pip to cast the spell it still lags 10 damage points behind Leviathan.
Your point being?
My point is math. x+y+z/=a How do figure that a spell that is across three damage types therefor requiring three different shields (or at least three of the exact same tower shield) for 10 less damage isn't equal to Leviathan than can be blocked for a likely 70% . While at worst of likely to happen scenarios for balance, chimera hits two shields. Lets do some basic arithmetic. 1030 * .3 = 309 (340 * .3)+(340 * .3)+340 = 544
In that light, yes, it does more damage. It still costs one more pip to cast than Leviathan though. I guess that's just irrelevant.
One more pip than Leviathan, so you want everyone to have Storms power, especially balance, yet, without giving storm health, resistance, and critical block.. How biased is that?
Yeah, I agree Efreet's weakness is generally better than Leviathan's disarms. Wasn't really my point. Let's take a look at those rank 3 spells...
The median damage of Storm Shark is 405 (375-435) dpp 135 The median damage of Sunbird is 325 (295-355) dpp 108 (27 diff. in dpp)
405-325=80
Leviathan=1030 dpp 129 Efreet=895 dpp 112 (17 diff. in dpp)
1030-895=135
True, the gap between damage per pip has gotten closer but tell me again why damage per pip matters when the fixed damage has actually gotten farther apart? Oh and also since the numbers still suggest Leviathan is potentially much more lethal in terms of damage than Efreet, what is the value in Efreet's weakness if it leaves the opponent alive and able to heal and eventually wand said weakness away whereas Leviathan can come closer to effectively closing the curtain on said opponent?
And you're still missing my point in that I'm not trying to compare Sirens vs Rain of Fire through the lens of damage output. My main point is the history of the game would prove it's fairly tenuous to compare one spell that's a DoT with one that is not. Especially to use that as a launching pad to talk about spells being "nerfed" and others "powered up" which is how this conversation started, if you remember.
There is a nerf.
A universal, across the boards, nerf that storm suffers badly for since raw damage is all storm has.
You wanna take this to the black board, okay, we can go there. Get out your scrap paper and calculator people. (And you thought you were done with math when you finished school. :D )
Compare Helephant to Stormzilla. Again proof that all other school needed at least one rank higher than said rank storm spell to equal the damage output. We are even looking at fire here which is the next damaging school down from storm, it gets worse the farther down the damage pole we go.
Again my stance. 1) Everything prior to defeating Malistare was in balance. By corollary everything after isn't.
2) Storm has lost damage power, and received nothing in return. I don't have problem with losing the damage (in fact I considered that he MUST lose power else game looses balance), but since his tactics must now change he needs utility spells to employ new tactics.
How did he loose power? Simple. Leviathan should have done (by extrapolating out the rate of damage increase per spell rank) at max 1170.
Yes, 1170 people. Throw in all your usual blades, traps, and what not storm could in ONE hit without a critical do 6885! (I am not using treasure cards, pet, amulets, sun school, star school, super charge, or feint)
I did say somewhere recently that if they hadn't nerfed storm it would have made Judgment look like a joke!
Where do I get such an outlandish figure? I mean that can't possibly be right can it?
Follow along.
Max damage Snake 145 Max damage Bat 285 Difference 140 Max damage Shark 435 Difference 150 Max damage Kraken 580 Difference 145 Max damage Stormzilla 730 Difference 150 Max damage Triton 875 Difference 145
See the pattern here?
So take a max damage triton and add on two ranks of power following the pattern and you get 1170.
How did KI get 1020? Simple, they gave Leviathan one less rank of power (1170 - 150 ) than it should have gotten. (this is why the gap in dpp has dropped) Maybe as compensation it was made set damage and given the remove charms. Personally, if I knew what the next three additions would bring, I would have demanded the damage.
The exact same pattern has been used through out all the schools (well baring life since they never had a AoE attack) from a year ago with Celestia forward.
Check any pattern you like and you will see a change from Celestia forward. When that change is a core attribute of a school and nothing happens to compensate it. Well, we have a nerf.
The problem KI faced was that after 50 levels the strengths and weakness of the classes would continue to grow exponentially. The very equations themselves that determined the progression and challenge rate of Wizard101 was the problem. The very core of the game.
KI came up with several solutions to the problem and one was the critical system. It is not an exponential equation like everything before it (KI wasn't making that mistake again). Right now it is a novelty and not a tool. I can't rely on it, nor can one discount it. I have hopes that in the next world or two it will even out. Like accuracy rating. KI can tell me that accuracy is constant through out the game till they are blue in the face. 85% accuracy is NOT 85% on unicorn way, but once you get past that you get a frequency of fizzle more consistent with an 85% rating.
I am hoping that soon we will get out of the unicorn way of critical.
Sorry, kinda dragged myself of topic there.
Was storm nerfed fundamentally? After my little lesson here I hope there is no debate as to the answer.
Am I fundamentally against storm having lost damage. To again make it clear, no. I supported it, I knew it had to happen. What I hoped would happen, and haven't seen, are utility spells that allow storm to change its base duel tactics in compensation for the reduction. Again large pierce on storm gear is an option. But it must be storm gear like massive resistance is classically ice gear, else we are killing storm too fast to have a chance again, and we are back to storm needing the base insane damage to possibly win by the style KI is enforcing.
Which is: I kill you quick, before you kill me just as quick.
jojowild23 wrote:
In that light, yes, it does more damage. It still costs one more pip to cast than Leviathan though. I guess that's just irrelevant.
I said in the post you got this quote from, and I will say it again. Other schools have always lagged behind storm in damage by one rank at least. You are one rank behind. Nothing to complain about, in fact you are lucky that IS only one rank behind and not more since the base dpp between balance and storm is big.
I am trying to point out that Rain of Fire is a DoT and Sirens is not, so it merely gives the appearance of being "nerfed." And by the way, Efreet vs. Leviathan is the last level we indeed have two spells where the level is even and the type of spell is even. In which case, Efreet's damage per pip: 112. Leviathan's damage per pip: 129. Your point being?
My point being that Levi gets two charms if there are two charms, let alone any charms at all. Efreet puts on a weakness. Period. There is no maybe or timing about this. Which is more valuable then? Storm has always per pip been one bracket above all other schools. Most other schools have to cast a rank three spell to equal the damage of a bats. Not so with Efreet, and Efreet has a better add on effect.
Nor is Rain of Fire sticky. In comes the initial 300 damage probably hitting a 70% shield. 90 Damage taken. Lets give the poor victim on the wrong end of this spell the benefit of doubt and say he has anther shield already in place, and it is even a fire shield. Another 80 damage. We will even say he had a shield in hand and throws that up. Second 80 damage. Alright, now, does he have a fourth shield? Probably not. So 266 damage. What makes you think that 516 damage (probably more) and one plus shields gone is of equal value to 880 damage, maybe we got a charm, and maybe the opponent wastes a turn when the spell fizzles?
Yeah, I agree Efreet's weakness is generally better than Leviathan's disarms. Wasn't really my point. Let's take a look at those rank 3 spells...
The median damage of Storm Shark is 405 (375-435) dpp 135 The median damage of Sunbird is 325 (295-355) dpp 108 (27 diff. in dpp)
405-325=80
Leviathan=1030 dpp 129 Efreet=895 dpp 112 (17 diff. in dpp)
1030-895=135
True, the gap between damage per pip has gotten closer but tell me again why damage per pip matters when the fixed damage has actually gotten farther apart? Oh and also since the numbers still suggest Leviathan is potentially much more lethal in terms of damage than Efreet, what is the value in Efreet's weakness if it leaves the opponent alive and able to heal and eventually wand said weakness away whereas Leviathan can come closer to effectively closing the curtain on said opponent?
And you're still missing my point in that I'm not trying to compare Sirens vs Rain of Fire through the lens of damage output. My main point is the history of the game would prove it's fairly tenuous to compare one spell that's a DoT with one that is not. Especially to use that as a launching pad to talk about spells being "nerfed" and others "powered up" which is how this conversation started, if you remember.
archmage987 wrote:
jojowild23 wrote:
The entire list of effects for Leviathan and Basilisk:
Leviathan-two disarms
Basilisk-stun
your point being?
Again, which is more useful in PvP? The maybe of disarm, or the more likely stun. Granted in PvE it is the other way around since lots of things are stun immune, to the point when I cast a lord, I expect to see a stun immune message and am pleasantly surprised when I don't.
I'll concede you this one point. I may be biased. I usually haven't had a problem getting a stun block down against Basilisk in the arena. And when I don't get one down, it hasn't made a difference, really, yet, as I'm sure it will at some point in the future. Medusa is actually a better stunner, because she's cheaper in pips and does more of it.
archmage987 wrote:
jojowild23 wrote:
Ok I'll redo my math on Chimera: 340x3=1020. Wow, that's the same as before when I calculated it! And wow for one more pip to cast the spell it still lags 10 damage points behind Leviathan.
Your point being?
My point is math. x+y+z/=a How do figure that a spell that is across three damage types therefor requiring three different shields (or at least three of the exact same tower shield) for 10 less damage isn't equal to Leviathan than can be blocked for a likely 70% . While at worst of likely to happen scenarios for balance, chimera hits two shields. Lets do some basic arithmetic. 1030 * .3 = 309 (340 * .3)+(340 * .3)+340 = 544
In that light, yes, it does more damage. It still costs one more pip to cast than Leviathan though. I guess that's just irrelevant.
Yes, you are correct, just a as you were correct the first time you posted this.
jojowild is getting the 1030 figure from central wiki.
Which tells us he/she probably doesn't have a storm mage him/herself.
We are talking though a difference of 10 points between correct and incorrect.
So?
It doesn't invalidate the basic truths of: 1) All other schools have historically lagged storm by at least one tier 2) Chimera is one rank behind Leviathan as to be expected.
Since it makes no difference in the illuminating of these truths; I will argue it either with correct or incorrect damage totals and still get my point across.
Yes, you are correct, just a as you were correct the first time you posted this.
jojowild is getting the 1030 figure from central wiki.
Which tells us he/she probably doesn't have a storm mage him/herself.
We are talking though a difference of 10 points between correct and incorrect.
So?
It doesn't invalidate the basic truths of: 1) All other schools have historically lagged storm by at least one tier 2) Chimera is one rank behind Leviathan as to be expected.
Since it makes no difference in the illuminating of these truths; I will argue it either with correct or incorrect damage totals and still get my point across.
What do you mean by all other schools have historically lagged Storm by at least one tier?
What do you mean by all other schools have historically lagged Storm by at least one tier?
It means exactly what I said.
If the confusion is over the choice of the word historically, then I am referring to all game mechanics established up to DS. Where I have repeatably held the position all schools were in balance.
The rest I thought was evident if you looked at it.
There is an example of that from me a couple of posts up.
I am not going to do another long lengthy post to list it all out for anyone.
I will leave you with another example and ask that you do further research on your own.
Lightning Bats 245 - 285, 2 pips hence tier 2
Locust Swarm 245 - 305, 3 pips hence tier 3
Balance needed one more pip (tier) to equal the damage storm does for 2.
Hence storm is ahead of the curve, and balance, in this case, needed one pip/level/tier more to do an equivalent amount of damage.
What do you mean by all other schools have historically lagged Storm by at least one tier?
It means exactly what I said.
If the confusion is over the choice of the word historically, then I am referring to all game mechanics established up to DS. Where I have repeatably held the position all schools were in balance.
The rest I thought was evident if you looked at it.
There is an example of that from me a couple of posts up.
I am not going to do another long lengthy post to list it all out for anyone.
I will leave you with another example and ask that you do further research on your own.
Lightning Bats 245 - 285, 2 pips hence tier 2
Locust Swarm 245 - 305, 3 pips hence tier 3
Balance needed one more pip (tier) to equal the damage storm does for 2.
Hence storm is ahead of the curve, and balance, in this case, needed one pip/level/tier more to do an equivalent amount of damage.
You could've just said rank of spell. And I don't think I need to research, I know all the damages :D and pips :D
That's not fair because I'm Myth and traps and blades for storm were DESIGNED to be weaker because storm is so strong. Myth does medium damage so 35% blade and 25% trap. Ice does less so 40% blade and 30% trap(i think?) . Storm does so much damage, I've seen, and accuracy can easily be compensated by clothing.
i am a storm wizard , and dont have any other high level wizards yet so i will not say this is better or that is the better school, we have it hard they have it easier ect... i will not get into everyones opinions of whats easier whats harder, ill just state facts.
yes my spells do more damage , yes i have a high damage % rating myself, thats basically a given storm does more damage. =1
now-
my probelm is that to compensate for this : 1. substantially lower health then ALL other schools 2. lower accuarcy so even at lvl 70 i will still fizzle (even with whats considered to be the " best gear and a pet with accuracy bonus im at iirc 94%) i consistantly see others at 100% 3. less power pips, so yea effert/chimera/ect... may be 1 more pip for less damage but i bet your power pip rating is 10-15% higher then mine atleast which more then levels the field out right. 4. far less resistance to other schools spells. when i see someones stats and see 60+ across the board resistances i know im gonna have to get lucky to win bc my damage cut in half then 55-80 percent from a sheild. yea my levy might do 1030! but after all that im luck to see a red 300 pop up 5. my criticals may be slightly higher then other schools but other schools all seem to have a higher block to criticals , in pvp since this is a pvp section , for myself , even putting on my critcal gear is out of the question b/c its just going to get blocked. i mean honstly at my level i see others critical far more often then i do ( and usually have a slightly higher or on par rating that i do ) , and when i do critical its almost always blocked. if i was gonna throw out a number id say 5 to 1 i take more criticals then i deal out that go through. yes i have to carry around multiple sets of gear , unlike others bc no 1 set of gear helps me like it does for other schools. sure skyscream gear is good , but your gonna get killed by criticals since your block is almost non existant with it which is why i dont use it and laugh when people says its the best storm gear.
so in a nutshell i take 5 weaknesses for 1 strength just in game pve ill take storm any day of the week over any other school. personally im not really social and solo'd easily 95% of the game. i was level 70 in about a month in a half from day 1 noob and i had finished WT and was working on celestia when i got 70. i was doing the same quests in celestia as people 10 -20 levels lower basically. not to mention when i got to ZF and people where all saying you just got here ...?
now if this sounds fair to you i strongly encourage you to watch some pvp 1 on 1 of any storm vs any other school. i personally have watched easily 25 in the last few days and would say the storm loss ratio to any school is easily 75%
and when i see and hear people complain about bolt spamming i really want to laugh. b/c they dont seem to realize its that or week 1 lightning bats spell to put down their endless defences and battle those high resistances. i mean think about it if that storm wizard started spamming you with lightning bats how much would you laugh then ? probably til you realized its all he can do to pass monsterous defences and resistances.
It is 1020 Let's ask Halston Balestrom this question, shall we?
Where are you getting this number? I'm honestly asking. The card description states 1030 as the base damage. However, card descriptions have been wrong before. If it is actually 1020, but the card description is 1030 then there is a bug and should be fixed. I'm just wondering if the number is coming from testing or something.
Well, if it was indeed changed, I have not used insane bolt, in like forever, but that is a good thing, since everything else is being nerfed about storm and since nobody seems to want storm to have a DoT spell.
And since Ice is getting incredible resistance to storm, for this spell to be moon damage and gets storms boosts, that levels the playing field some.
That might be true, but is it the right answer to give Storm an ability that use to be a Balance exclusive? Balance is the only school that deals damage with limited shields to defend with (and part of the reason their damage isn't extremely high). Storm boosting Moon Damage gives them the same capability, but the capacity to double it. Yes, there is a drawback with Insane Bolt, but what if new spells with Moon Damage is introduced?
Looks like my fears have come to pass.
The new level 70 wand is moon damage. Granted, it isn't very much, but the door has been opened.
I guess the question now is, can any other school boost Moon damage in addition to Storm?????
